Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

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Mike Seddon

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Oct 8, 2014
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Hi all,

Just found this forum whilst searching for an answer so I thought I'd sign up as a lot of the advice here looks great.

I've started singing in a band (after years hiding behind my guitar!).

At rehearsals I've been using a Sennheiser e835 as that's what the rooms we use provide. I decide to get my own as I don't fancy using one that lots of people are sharing.

I was about to buy one when I noticed the next model up. The Sennheiser e845.

The only difference I could see is the e835 has a Cardioid Polar Pattern whilst the e845 has a Hypercardioid Polar pattern.

From what I can read, the Cardioid will reject the noise coming from it at the back of the microphone whereas the hyper has a narrower front end but seems to have some leakage from back of microphone.

My question is this. I want to avoid feedback (who doesn't). I tend to play with my guitar amp behind me and occasionally I get feedback using the e835. Also in rehearsal we tend to stand in a circle facing inwards.

Anyone offer any advice on which Cardioid pattern to go for when used in a live band situation with potentially lots of noise going on around the mic?

Many thanks
Mike
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

It sounds like your main request is feedback control.

The mic is a START-but you also have to consider the rest of the system-INCLUDING YOURSELF.

You need main speakers that are not spilling sound on the stage.

You need monitors that have a flat phase response and a single source of sound-not with offset drivers that have a different freq response at different positions.

You need to have the monitors properly eqed.

YOU need to sing properly and in the correct part of the mics pattern.

It also depends on where the monitors are placed in relation to the mic. If using 1 wedge (HIGHLY suggested for the best sound quality) then the cardioid is going to be your best bet.

But if you have an ego problem and HAVE to have 2 wedges (and all the interaction/interference that comes with that setup) then the hyper may be a better solution-because the null is off to the sides.

The cardioid will give more freedom of movement without the level changes of positioning with the hyper.

Now this all assuming a mic on a stand. But If you are talking about a lav type mic-then I highly suggest using an omni mic. It will overall work much better (in just about every case) than a directional mic.

So the answer (as usual) is "it depends".

Fixating on a single element in the system and thinking that it will solve all your problems is NOT the answer. It is a combination of many elements that gives you the result you are looking for.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Thanks for that detailed answer.

Yes, feedback was one of the major concerns but also just really understanding the difference between the two options which you have explained perfectly. Thanks

Ivan Beaver said:
It sounds like your main request is feedback control.

The mic is a START-but you also have to consider the rest of the system-INCLUDING YOURSELF.

You need main speakers that are not spilling sound on the stage.

You need monitors that have a flat phase response and a single source of sound-not with offset drivers that have a different freq response at different positions.

You need to have the monitors properly eqed.

YOU need to sing properly and in the correct part of the mics pattern.

It also depends on where the monitors are placed in relation to the mic. If using 1 wedge (HIGHLY suggested for the best sound quality) then the cardioid is going to be your best bet.

But if you have an ego problem and HAVE to have 2 wedges (and all the interaction/interference that comes with that setup) then the hyper may be a better solution-because the null is off to the sides.

The cardioid will give more freedom of movement without the level changes of positioning with the hyper.

Now this all assuming a mic on a stand. But If you are talking about a lav type mic-then I highly suggest using an omni mic. It will overall work much better (in just about every case) than a directional mic.

So the answer (as usual) is "it depends".

Fixating on a single element in the system and thinking that it will solve all your problems is NOT the answer. It is a combination of many elements that gives you the result you are looking for.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Mike Seddon said:
Thanks for that detailed answer.

Yes, feedback was one of the major concerns but also just really understanding the difference between the two options which you have explained perfectly. Thanks
Click to expand...

I also find that sometimes - especially on a shallow depth stage - to allow for a little more room for the front person, using a monitor slightly to the side is beneficial. As Ivan Stated, due to the feedback rejection being better at the side with hyper, this would accommodate that senario also.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Mike,
Depending on your mic technique and the style of music played, you might want to add the Audix OM7 to your list. However, you have to have a "lips on the grille" style for the OM7 because of it's tight pickup pattern. It costs a bit more money than the 845 but is renowned on loud stages for sound quality and feedback rejection.

JP
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Debbie dunkley said:
I also find that sometimes - especially on a shallow depth stage - to allow for a little more room for the front person, using a monitor slightly to the side is beneficial. As Ivan Stated, due to the feedback rejection being better at the side with hyper, this would accommodate that senario also.
Click to expand...
Debbie may be a "newbie" here, but earned her stripes over there.
Off to the side, no music stand in the way seems to be the hot ticket for a monitor with the hypercardoid mic.
frank
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

OP,

One thing I would suggest - try a wide variety of mics to see which one suits your style and sounds good with your voice. Mics and voices should be matched with care. Personally, I like to sing using my Sennheiser e935 (cardioid), but the singer in the jazz band I am in (female) uses a supercardiod e945. Both are great. There are many good vocal mics out there in the $100-$250 range that are worth a look (SM57, SM58, e835, e845, and many, many more!).

As to cardioid versus hypercardioid, the advice above answers that well enough. I run low enough volume levels typically where pushing the limits of GBF is not that critical so sound quality trumps pattern for me. YMMV. Super-tight pattern mics (Audix OM7 for example) can be hard to master.

So, go try a few mics and see what you like. Nothing at all wrong with the e835s or e845s. I have a few of each and like them plenty.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Chad Young said:
OP,


Super-tight pattern mics (Audix OM7 for example) can be hard to master.
Click to expand...

There is nothing to master with the OM7 because it's not a mic that is meant to be "worked". You have to be right on it. If the OP is on a loud stage and his mic technique is "up close", the OM7 should be on the short list mics to consider. IMO It's better than the others mentioned not only because of the high GBF but also the fact that backline, drums and cymbal wash will be minimized in the FOH and monitor mixes.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Chad Young said:
I run low enough volume levels typically where pushing the limits of GBF is not that critical so sound quality trumps pattern for me.
Click to expand...

Pattern has a LOT to do with sound quality, regardless of on-stage volume levels. Unless you're on a totally quirt stage in a very large space with zero reflections and no monitor wedges or bleed from the PA, a mic WILL pick up more than just the voice and the content of off-axis frequency fall-off contributes to the overall sound. It is commonly accepted that an omni-directional mic will have a more natural sound than other patterns, but the live usability is fairly limited due to the potentially low GBF.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Dick Rees said:
Pattern has a LOT to do with sound quality, regardless of on-stage volume levels. Unless you're on a totally quirt stage in a very large space with zero reflections and no monitor wedges or bleed from the PA, a mic WILL pick up more than just the voice and the content of off-axis frequency fall-off contributes to the overall sound. It is commonly accepted that an omni-directional mic will have a more natural sound than other patterns, but the live usability is fairly limited due to the potentially low GBF.
Click to expand...

Well if we're really going to get picky... there's also the fact that different parts of the human body sound different and all of the sound does not just come from the mouth; the chest and head resonate as well and how much of that you pick up will affect your sound too.

But then again, I mean, how much is this going to affect you live? It depends. :p
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

frank kayser said:
Debbie may be a "newbie" here, but earned her stripes over there.
Off to the side, no music stand in the way seems to be the hot ticket for a monitor with the hypercardoid mic.
frank
Click to expand...


Thank you Sir.

+1 John….on the OM7…VERY nice mic. Extremely good feedback rejection.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Everything that Ivan said plus turn down your effing guitar! Just kidding!!

But from a soundman's prospective, I hope you don't have your amp's speakers pointing at the back of your legs!
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Especially if you and your band are fairly loud on stage, then I'd also recommend the Audix OM7, as it is designed for vocals with loud amps and drums nearby.

If you've not used a hypercardioid mic like the OM7 before, you may need to practice singing very close to the front of the mic, as not only will the pattern on an OM7 be a lot narrower than your e835, but the mic's gain level will be markedly lower, as well - which is why the OM7 can handle loud stages with less propensity for feedback.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Steve Garris said:
Everything that Ivan said plus turn down your effing guitar! Just kidding!!

But from a soundman's prospective, I hope you don't have your amp's speakers pointing at the back of your legs!
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm usually the one telling everyone to turn down when we are practicing :)

Funnily enough I used to have the amp behind me at my feet for rehearsals as we tend to stand in a circle facing inwards. I now have the amp raised so I can hear it. I'm amazed at the lack of feedback we get in rehearsals because we all have amps to our backs facing inwards to the center of the circle.

We are planning to hire a hall for an afternoon just to practice the set up on a proper stage and see how to best position ourselves, etc.

Cheers again everyone for the fantastic advice.

For the record, I eventually bought the E835s purely because that was the one I'd used in practice and seemed fine. (and cheaper!),

I do have my eye on the OM7 but it seemed a price point to high as a first buy for me. I've only just started singing at the front of the band (I'm 51, is this too late!!!! - just kidding) as so I thought I should start with an entry level mic and gain some experience with mic technique.

Thanks
Mike
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Mike Seddon said:
Actually, I'm usually the one telling everyone to turn down when we are practicing :)

Funnily enough I used to have the amp behind me at my feet for rehearsals as we tend to stand in a circle facing inwards. I now have the amp raised so I can hear it. I'm amazed at the lack of feedback we get in rehearsals because we all have amps to our backs facing inwards to the center of the circle.

We are planning to hire a hall for an afternoon just to practice the set up on a proper stage and see how to best position ourselves, etc.

Cheers again everyone for the fantastic advice.

For the record, I eventually bought the E835s purely because that was the one I'd used in practice and seemed fine. (and cheaper!),

I do have my eye on the OM7 but it seemed a price point to high as a first buy for me. I've only just started singing at the front of the band (I'm 51, is this too late!!!! - just kidding) as so I thought I should start with an entry level mic and gain some experience with mic technique.

Thanks
Mike
Click to expand...

http://en-us.sennheiser.com/downloads/download/file/3585/e-835-frequency-response.jpg
This is the frequency response of an 835. I was told by someone at Sennheiser that the hi end boost was to make it sound good/cut thru on a cheaper sound system.
 

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Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Kevin Maxwell said:
http://en-us.sennheiser.com/downloads/download/file/3585/e-835-frequency-response.jpg
This is the frequency response of an 835. I was told by someone at Sennheiser that the hi end boost was to make it sound good/cut thru on a cheaper sound system.
Click to expand...

That boost can also add to feedback issues. Im just a weekend warrioor myself doing sound and this is what I've found
Fwiw, I have 835's 845's, om2's om3's om5's, beta 58's and 58's

-Beta 58's, I sold them all.
-om5, sold it as I heard nothing special when I used it.
-835, one step less bright as a beta 58 and they sit in the case all the time now.
-845, I still use this, seems to be the right mic for one girl I work with. Plus less feedback issues then a 835 when she decides to bend over and stick the mic in the monitor to pic up her tamborine,,,,,
-om2,om3 Well these are what I use now when I put mics up for people. People who do not hold a mic and just leave in a stand like a -musician I use the om2. The mic seems to have some handling noise.
-So I tried a om3 on singers that always have the mic in their hand, the om3 rolls off in the bottom end some so this helps.
-58's, I have a few but have found that I can control the 0m2's and 3's a little easier the 58's
-0m7, I have never tried, from what I have read about the mic it seems like its for Ozzy on a huge stage, along with the low gain and people I work with that sing from a wispper in one song to thinking they are Rob Halford in the next song I don't think it would work well for me so I didn't try one.
- Don't be afraid to try a om2 or 3, if the 835 is to bright for ya. Like I said they ( 835) sit in the case now.

I know this your topic but I was thinking on trying a om3 wireless. I have a few people I work with, with really bad wireless mics, that insist on using them. So for my next season I want to have a wireless that I can have available. Point to this is, Anyone have any expeirence with the om3 wireless? If this is over stepping the bounds to your topic Mike just ask people not to reply to my question.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Mike Seddon said:
Actually, I'm usually the one telling everyone to turn down when we are practicing :)

...... I've only just started singing at the front of the band (I'm 51, is this too late!!!! - just kidding) as so I thought I should start with an entry level mic and gain some experience with mic technique.

Thanks
Mike
Click to expand...



Hello

Too late - NEVER - listen to Johnny Cash last album before his death - weak old man with incredible power in his voice. Malvina Reynolds ( yes - I was in recording session of "Held over" ) and many more.

At your youngish age you certainly can afford good mic once you decide on it ???



Pappa - soon 64
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Alan Sledzieski said:
That boost can also add to feedback issues. Im just a weekend warrioor myself doing sound and this is what I've found
Fwiw, I have 835's 845's, om2's om3's om5's, beta 58's and 58's

-Beta 58's, I sold them all.
-om5, sold it as I heard nothing special when I used it.
-835, one step less bright as a beta 58 and they sit in the case all the time now.
-845, I still use this, seems to be the right mic for one girl I work with. Plus less feedback issues then a 835 when she decides to bend over and stick the mic in the monitor to pic up her tamborine,,,,,
-om2,om3 Well these are what I use now when I put mics up for people. People who do not hold a mic and just leave in a stand like a -musician I use the om2. The mic seems to have some handling noise.
-So I tried a om3 on singers that always have the mic in their hand, the om3 rolls off in the bottom end some so this helps.
-58's, I have a few but have found that I can control the 0m2's and 3's a little easier the 58's
-0m7, I have never tried, from what I have read about the mic it seems like its for Ozzy on a huge stage, along with the low gain and people I work with that sing from a wispper in one song to thinking they are Rob Halford in the next song I don't think it would work well for me so I didn't try one.
- Don't be afraid to try a om2 or 3, if the 835 is to bright for ya. Like I said they ( 835) sit in the case now.

I know this your topic but I was thinking on trying a om3 wireless. I have a few people I work with, with really bad wireless mics, that insist on using them. So for my next season I want to have a wireless that I can have available. Point to this is, Anyone have any expeirence with the om3 wireless? If this is over stepping the bounds to your topic Mike just ask people not to reply to my question.
Click to expand...

You are very welcome to jump in on my thread.
 
Re: Difference between Cardioid and hypercardioid polar - Buying a Mic!

Steve Garris said:
Everything that Ivan said plus turn down your effing guitar! Just kidding!!

But from a soundman's prospective, I hope you don't have your amp's speakers pointing at the back of your legs!
Click to expand...
If it's too loud I would rather plexi it that have it up in the air or tilted right into the vocal mics.
 
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