I am helping a youth group with their sound and I am having some difficulty with the stage monitoring. When the band is playing it is usually 90db or more just from the drums, so the guitarist turn up their amps to hear themselves. The walls are cement so it is not that good acoustics. I can get everyone fairly happy with their monitors except for the electric guitar player, where he stands sounds like a dead spot. I have put some pictures up so you can see what kind of amp and wedge is set up in that auditorium, any help would be appreciated.
Difficulty with stage monitoring
- Thread starter James Puder
- Start date
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
Looking at one of those pics you posted in looks as though maybe he is not in the pattern of the wedge. I would try moving it closer to him or grab a block of wood and prop the back end of the wedge up. Trying moving it around till he can hear it?
Looking at one of those pics you posted in looks as though maybe he is not in the pattern of the wedge. I would try moving it closer to him or grab a block of wood and prop the back end of the wedge up. Trying moving it around till he can hear it?
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
Have you actually stood beside him (guitar player) and listened to what he is hearing? That would be a good start.
Have you verified that the monitor he uses is working properly- (both highs and lows)?
Without that information-there is no way to start to suggest any possible solutions.
Have you actually stood beside him (guitar player) and listened to what he is hearing? That would be a good start.
Have you verified that the monitor he uses is working properly- (both highs and lows)?
Without that information-there is no way to start to suggest any possible solutions.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
Those monitors are SM500s which are ripping loud if powered and processed correctly (and weigh a ton). More than likely, they aren't powered and processed correctly. In fact, the box in the picture has the biamp switch in the biamp position - if you're providing a full range signal (on +/-1 of the Speakon) with the switch that way, you'll be getting nothing from the HF driver, and therefore, no one is going to be able to hear anything.
Those monitors are SM500s which are ripping loud if powered and processed correctly (and weigh a ton). More than likely, they aren't powered and processed correctly. In fact, the box in the picture has the biamp switch in the biamp position - if you're providing a full range signal (on +/-1 of the Speakon) with the switch that way, you'll be getting nothing from the HF driver, and therefore, no one is going to be able to hear anything.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
Pics can be deceiving, but to me, it appears the electric guitar player's amp is not aimed at his head, where it should be. It looks like it is shooting over his head and away at an angle. I would start by making sure his amp is pointing at his head (ears) and use that as his primary guitar 'monitor'. You can then have less guitar in his wedge or maybe none at all. If the idea was to have the amp pointing away from the mic to avoid guitar bleed into his vocal mic, I would say unless he is a lead singer, keep his fader down inbetween his vocal parts. You're always going to have some bleed, but it is probably better if the guitar player can hear his guitar tone from his amp, rather than from his wedge, and thus keep overall levels lower on stage. With less (or no) guitar in his wedge, he can better hear the vocal mix or other stuff he wants in his monitor.
Pics can be deceiving, but to me, it appears the electric guitar player's amp is not aimed at his head, where it should be. It looks like it is shooting over his head and away at an angle. I would start by making sure his amp is pointing at his head (ears) and use that as his primary guitar 'monitor'. You can then have less guitar in his wedge or maybe none at all. If the idea was to have the amp pointing away from the mic to avoid guitar bleed into his vocal mic, I would say unless he is a lead singer, keep his fader down inbetween his vocal parts. You're always going to have some bleed, but it is probably better if the guitar player can hear his guitar tone from his amp, rather than from his wedge, and thus keep overall levels lower on stage. With less (or no) guitar in his wedge, he can better hear the vocal mix or other stuff he wants in his monitor.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
Thanks for everyones input, I have stood where the guitar player stands (with the wedge aimed correctly), I am not sure if the guitar amp is canceling the wedge out or something. I am going back tomorrow and will test the problem again with all the suggestions in mind and post my response Saturday for sure. Thank you again.
Thanks for everyones input, I have stood where the guitar player stands (with the wedge aimed correctly), I am not sure if the guitar amp is canceling the wedge out or something. I am going back tomorrow and will test the problem again with all the suggestions in mind and post my response Saturday for sure. Thank you again.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
The only way the guitar amp could be "cancelling" the monitor is if both are reproducing the same signal AND one of them is out of polarity.
HOWEVER-if the guitar amp is already to loud-why is it being run through the monitor. ALso the cancellation would be very freq specific and would change with different listening positions.
Now if the guitar amp is "washing out" the monitor-then that is a different stroty. He needs to turn down.
One of the biggest problems with Church musicians is that they think it is all about THEM. Somehow they cannot play unless it is under their stipulations. They ahve to realize that they are there as PART OF A TEAM in the whole worship experience.
The congregation did not come to hear them play-specifically.
They have to learn to work with the rest of the musicians and the sound guys to present a good experience to the audience-or else somebody else will be brought in who WILL work with the rest of the team. I cannot tell you how many HUNDREDS of times I have run into this exact same problem.
Turn it down-or pack it up and go home. Simple as that. If you can't play quieter (ie get your "tone") then we don't need you. You are obviously to good for that particular venue-so go home and play with yourself.
Yes I have told that to quite a few musicians-they didn't like it-but it is the truth-whether they like it or not.
The only way the guitar amp could be "cancelling" the monitor is if both are reproducing the same signal AND one of them is out of polarity.
HOWEVER-if the guitar amp is already to loud-why is it being run through the monitor. ALso the cancellation would be very freq specific and would change with different listening positions.
Now if the guitar amp is "washing out" the monitor-then that is a different stroty. He needs to turn down.
One of the biggest problems with Church musicians is that they think it is all about THEM. Somehow they cannot play unless it is under their stipulations. They ahve to realize that they are there as PART OF A TEAM in the whole worship experience.
The congregation did not come to hear them play-specifically.
They have to learn to work with the rest of the musicians and the sound guys to present a good experience to the audience-or else somebody else will be brought in who WILL work with the rest of the team. I cannot tell you how many HUNDREDS of times I have run into this exact same problem.
Turn it down-or pack it up and go home. Simple as that. If you can't play quieter (ie get your "tone") then we don't need you. You are obviously to good for that particular venue-so go home and play with yourself.
Yes I have told that to quite a few musicians-they didn't like it-but it is the truth-whether they like it or not.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
and by extension, if they ARE being biamped, you need to check that the processing and amping is set up correctly. if i were a betting man, i'd be betting on this as the culprit. 'cause yeah, sm500s can and will remove your head if set up correctly. i don't care how loud your guitar amp is...
and by extension, if they ARE being biamped, you need to check that the processing and amping is set up correctly. if i were a betting man, i'd be betting on this as the culprit. 'cause yeah, sm500s can and will remove your head if set up correctly. i don't care how loud your guitar amp is...
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
preach it brother ivan!
but yeah, you're quite right. i'm blessed to have actual mature, professional guitar players in my church band, so this is a non-issue. 2 of the 3 use modelers and play direct, and the third i have to ask to turn UP so that i can hear his amp [with the mic pressed against the grill] over the drums. but having spent my share of time in the church trenches, the scenario ivan describes is by far the more common occurrence.
preach it brother ivan!
but yeah, you're quite right. i'm blessed to have actual mature, professional guitar players in my church band, so this is a non-issue. 2 of the 3 use modelers and play direct, and the third i have to ask to turn UP so that i can hear his amp [with the mic pressed against the grill] over the drums. but having spent my share of time in the church trenches, the scenario ivan describes is by far the more common occurrence.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
And that instruction needs to come from someone in authority, other than the sound mixer; i.e. a pastor, or worship leader.
And that instruction needs to come from someone in authority, other than the sound mixer; i.e. a pastor, or worship leader.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
Agreed-because everybody knows the sound person has no idea what they are talking about. No I am not kidding-in this type of situation.
Because the sound person should be able to "adjust" the sound-after all-they have all those knobs and switches in which to do so. If they can't adjust it to please everybody-then it is obvious that they don't know what they are doing. And how DARE they suggest ANYTHING in regards to playing to the MUSICIANS. Because everybody knows the musicians are correct and they KNOW what they are doing.
NOT!
A sad but true reality. Been there to many times already.
Agreed-because everybody knows the sound person has no idea what they are talking about. No I am not kidding-in this type of situation.
Because the sound person should be able to "adjust" the sound-after all-they have all those knobs and switches in which to do so. If they can't adjust it to please everybody-then it is obvious that they don't know what they are doing. And how DARE they suggest ANYTHING in regards to playing to the MUSICIANS. Because everybody knows the musicians are correct and they KNOW what they are doing.
NOT!
A sad but true reality. Been there to many times already.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
You could not pay me enough to do sound at a church. Too many wanna-be Divas with no clue
-facepalm-
You could not pay me enough to do sound at a church. Too many wanna-be Divas with no clue
-facepalm-
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
And most people who run sound at a church do not get paid. It is mostly volunteers. The larger churchs have paid staff-but most don't.
And most people who run sound at a church do not get paid. It is mostly volunteers. The larger churchs have paid staff-but most don't.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
I see it all the time on different forums.
"they say my 100W JCM800 Marshall full stack is too loud. What can I do? I need my tone?????
It's a church, not madison square gardens. Save the hassle and run direct, tonal nirvana is for the bedroom and rarely has a place on 90% of the stages. You have to fit in with the rest of the band and sit in the mix. Unless you are Steve Vai, Satch, Eric Clapton/Johnson, they really aren't here to see you anyway.
I see it all the time on different forums.
"they say my 100W JCM800 Marshall full stack is too loud. What can I do? I need my tone?????
It's a church, not madison square gardens. Save the hassle and run direct, tonal nirvana is for the bedroom and rarely has a place on 90% of the stages. You have to fit in with the rest of the band and sit in the mix. Unless you are Steve Vai, Satch, Eric Clapton/Johnson, they really aren't here to see you anyway.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
True enough. Anytime I've ever gone I've just stayed well away from the whole mess. Too many Divas.
$1000/service, (sometimes theres more than one) ok I'd put up with whatever was thrown at me, but any less, I'd take a pass.
True enough. Anytime I've ever gone I've just stayed well away from the whole mess. Too many Divas.
$1000/service, (sometimes theres more than one) ok I'd put up with whatever was thrown at me, but any less, I'd take a pass.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
The best part about church gigs is the lack of puke or other bodily emissions on cables and no cigarette smoke odor on gear or me. Other than that they're pretty much the same as a club (not bar) gig; variable amounts of talent and the occasional prima donna to make for a challenging day.
The best part about church gigs is the lack of puke or other bodily emissions on cables and no cigarette smoke odor on gear or me. Other than that they're pretty much the same as a club (not bar) gig; variable amounts of talent and the occasional prima donna to make for a challenging day.
Re: Difficulty with stage monitoring
I guess you've never done a church gig with live animals that crap everywhere-or had camels walk on your snake cable and so forth. Or had pyro that caught the stage on fire for Easter.
Yes we do that that from time to time down here. We have one church in which there is a lady that follows behind the animals and picks up their poo-and she is really happy doing so. HOWEVER I stay away from the churches that use snakes as part of the worship service. Luckily they can't my services
I guess you've never done a church gig with live animals that crap everywhere-or had camels walk on your snake cable and so forth. Or had pyro that caught the stage on fire for Easter.
Yes we do that that from time to time down here. We have one church in which there is a lady that follows behind the animals and picks up their poo-and she is really happy doing so. HOWEVER I stay away from the churches that use snakes as part of the worship service. Luckily they can't my services