Discussion of Whether China is Any Good or Not (Was: Mythbusting)

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Tim Duffin

Armchair Instigator
Mar 3, 2011
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Jay Barracato said:
Who said they fail more often now? What data do you have to support that position?
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The interesting thing about audio is that no data about anything important has ever been collected which can adequately describe any trends in audio technology, or more specifically, subjective things like "x speakers die more often than y speakers". However, this does not negate years and years of personal experience regarding the subject matter. Therefore, I will propose a challenge for you:

In my experience, all Chinese made speakers fail more often than US made counterparts of the same power rating. ALL of them, at ALL times without any exceptions, ever, anywhere.


I challenge you to find a single chinese made loudspeaker of any type which is better in ANY way than an american made counterpart of equal power rating. This includes every driver ever manufactured anywhere in china since the year 1900.
 
In my experience, all Chinese made speakers fail more often than US made counterparts of the same power rating. ALL of them, at ALL times without any exceptions, ever, anywhere.
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Nothing quite like xenophobia supported by faulty logic.
 
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Re: Mythbusting

Jay Barracato said:
Nothing quite like xenophobia supported by faulty logic.
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I wish people on the forum would properly quote the things which they are responding to. I know 'you' know what you are talking about, but it makes it really hard for others to follow if you don't follow the quote-response method of posting.

Anyway, yes. There is no reason a Chinese speaker should be worse than an American made speaker. At our company I source parts only from the Americas except for Neodymium. I have seen MANY failures from our American sourced components. Let's see: ( uncured coil adhesive, cones not built up to the right density, spiders cooked too long or at too high of heat. ) As far as the Chinese Neo, always seems to be about the same consistency, based on flux density evaluations. As far as OEM Chinese parts which have arrived; They are pretty much a joke. But, that is no indication of what happens when a experienced manufacturer goes to China or any low cost manufacturing country and starts building speakers.
 
Re: Mythbusting

Tim Duffin said:
In my experience, all Chinese made speakers fail more often than US made counterparts of the same power rating. ALL of them, at ALL times without any exceptions, ever, anywhere.
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In order for you to even attempt to make that assertion (based on your experience as you say), you would have to purchase a large sample of both types of equivalent products, and use them equivalently for a statistically long period of time without any bias toward one or the other..
I doubt you have done this. instead, when you say "in my experience" I believe you meant to say 'from what I've heard' which is a completely different matter..

Jason
 
Re: Mythbusting

Jason Lavoie said:
In order for you to even attempt to make that assertion (based on your experience as you say), you would have to purchase a large sample of both types of equivalent products, and use them equivalently for a statistically long period of time without any bias toward one or the other..
I doubt you have done this. instead, when you say "in my experience" I believe you meant to say 'from what I've heard' which is a completely different matter..

Jason
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No, I wouldn't. Statistical analysis of trends related to large scale failure modes over timed intervals is not the issue, product quality is. I want to compare something like; "600 watt pro quality 18 inch woofers" and find ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of a better product coming from china than the US. When I say "pro level" I am not talking about the crappiest possible woofers one could design, I am talking about respected pro audio level woofers that you would find in touring level products. All I am asking is for ONE EXAMPLE, just ONE out of the hundreds of "pro audio" manufacturers and millions of speakers that come from China.

The comparison can be anything except price. Any specification, any machining tolerance, any manufacturing method, any glue adhesion per temp rating, ANYTHING!!
 
Re: Mythbusting

Here are some goodies if someone wants to do a side by side, even for even test: Professional Speaker, Professional Speaker Catalog - China Professional Speaker manufacturers

I remember once taking apart a "Yamaha" motocross engine made in China. It looked like the real deal down to but not including measuring tolerances. Taking apart the carburettor, it was close but no cigar, jets were way off, and thus the performance would be poor and unpredictable. I guess the audio world is no different, a lot of look-like and not perform-like.
When the japanese started manufacturing western goods, they at least had a long tradition in steel technology and were very aware of the concept of quality materials and the right manufacturing process.
 
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Re: Mythbusting

Tim Duffin said:
Obviously we are talking about speakers...

And anyways, that consumer electronics product is a US designed product. The chinese designed copies are garbage, as you already may have guessed.
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Still, the iPhone is a good example of how it is possible to have some consistency in product quality while manufacturing in China. I bet it costs a bit more than some other manufacturing facilities there. On the other hand, I only see iPhones around me, no first hand experience there (I like phones with keyboards), but it seems to me that the iPhones are doing what they should do most of the time.

Back to speakers: I call BS when someone says "all products that are made in China are rubbish". It depends on so many factors. Comparing "600W pro speakers" is also flawed, as there are a lot of other factors to compare (like sensitivity, to state the obvious).

Back to speaker fail myths: I like those myths, it's never going to be boring when some audio guys get together ;-)
 
Re: Mythbusting

If you are going to call Tim's statement BS, then you should have no problem listing several Chinese-made speakers that are superior, or at least equal to their American or European made counter part.
 
Re: Mythbusting

Chuck Simon said:
If you are going to call Tim's statement BS, then you should have no problem listing several Chinese-made speakers that are superior, or at least equal to their American or European made counter part.
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I can't. Here's why: I'm an operator, no speaker manufacturer. I use the final product, not the pre-product. That means I don't know all speakers made in China, the USA or Europe.
I just say: don't underestimate the potential of Chinese manufacturing. For the right price they can outperform us easily, like they do regarding battery design.


Bottom line: Chinese manufacturing quality does depend on management, not on the country alone.
 
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Re: Mythbusting

Well,

It's not a company that produces speakers for professional applications, but for home hi fi applications TangBand is a company that builds all their products in China and by all accounts produces some very fine products that are easily the equal of similarly priced European and American made products. Parts Express carries a bunch of their stuff.

Loren Jones

Chuck Simon said:
If you are going to call Tim's statement BS, then you should have no problem listing several Chinese-made speakers that are superior, or at least equal to their American or European made counter part.
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Re: Mythbusting

Loren Jones said:
Well,

It's not a company that produces speakers for professional applications, but for home hi fi applications TangBand is a company that builds all their products in China and by all accounts produces some very fine products that are easily the equal of similarly priced European and American made products. Parts Express carries a bunch of their stuff.

Loren Jones
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I would have to agree here. I have a pair of the Tang Band 3" full rangers in my bedroom. I've run them (sometimes very hard) for about 7-8 years and they just keep on keepin' on. Very good quality. Not super-cheap though....
 
Re: Mythbusting

Christian Tepfer said:
I can't.




Here's why: I'm an operator, no speaker manufacturer. I use the final product, not the pre-product. That means I don't know all speakers made in China, the USA or Europe.
I just say: don't underestimate the potential of Chinese manufacturing. For the right price they can outperform us easily, like they do regarding battery design.




Bottom line: Chinese manufacturing quality does depend on management, not on the country alone.
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Thats the point. Nobody can. The land in which the loudspeaker parts reside does not matter, the people making it do. 80% of Chinese people have a sub 5th grade education. I guarantee that no graduate with a degree in materials science is making your speaker, its more than likely someone who can barely afford to eat, much less care AT ALL about what they are making. When you have employees who are nothing more than slaves, it is impossible to get them to consider such abstractions like the word "quality". Fun fact-- there is no direct translation in mandarin for the word "quality". That concept simply doesn't exist in China, much like the word "democracy."
 
Re: Mythbusting

Tim Duffin said:
Thats the point. Nobody can. The land in which the loudspeaker parts reside does not matter,
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We can agree on that
the people making it do.
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That didn't last long...

I'd be more inclined to blame or credit the design engineers, process engineers, and the like. The people working on line have minimal discretion over how they execute their particular task..
80% of Chinese people have a sub 5th grade education.
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oh dear... they've done well for such a poorly educated people. I've met several with more schooling than me, but I was not much of a student.
I guarantee that no graduate with a degree in materials science is making your speaker,
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Safe to say that about western factories too.
its more than likely someone who can barely afford to eat, much less care AT ALL about what they are making.
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I don't know about their nutrition, but a common issue with all factory workers everywhere is that they rarely have a good sense of product in context of end markets. One problem I had with workers in a US factory is getting them to understand things like the difference in cosmetic standards for a $10k recording studio product that would often be the central piece in a room, and $99 fixed install product destined to be hidden in a closet... They just thought I was messing with them when my cosmetic "quality" standards would seem to flip-flop wildly between products, sometimes built on production lines right next to each other..
When you have employees who are nothing more than slaves, it is impossible to get them to consider such abstractions like the word "quality". Fun fact-- there is no direct translation in mandarin for the word "quality". That concept simply doesn't exist in China, much like the word "democracy."
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质量

民主

蠢驴

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In fact I have read reports of near slave labor in one regional fired brick factory, where retarded people were coerced to do the grueling work for for free or just room and board, but the case I heard about was stopped and the factory owner and some local government official was jailed (or worse).

China has a long way to go, to catch up to west's standard of living and wage rates... but any crap products coming from there IMO are due to poor design, poor process or poor materials management. The Chinese workers are not inherently better or worse than western workers, while they don't seem whine as much about the good old days. :-)

JR
 
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Re: Mythbusting

Tim Duffin said:
Thats the point. Nobody can. The land in which the loudspeaker parts reside does not matter, the people making it do. 80% of Chinese people have a sub 5th grade education. I guarantee that no graduate with a degree in materials science is making your speaker, its more than likely someone who can barely afford to eat, much less care AT ALL about what they are making. When you have employees who are nothing more than slaves, it is impossible to get them to consider such abstractions like the word "quality". Fun fact-- there is no direct translation in mandarin for the word "quality". That concept simply doesn't exist in China, much like the word "democracy."
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Tim, this is just getting ridiculous. If you agree that the place where a speaker is made doesn't matter, why are you talking exclusively about macroeconomic issues and political issues? Clearly China is getting their act together. Either find some way to talk about specific problems or stop posting in this thread.
 
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