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Double 15” and Horn Drum Fill
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<blockquote data-quote="Steve White" data-source="post: 213669" data-attributes="member: 12457"><p>Joris, you should start another thread brother. Your input could get lost over time and your sharing the trials and tribulations of component/system design is interesting for those of us that are experienced with it and should prove to be invaluable to newer engineers just starting down this path. The thought process and testing is an interesting read. No charts or graphs - they have their place - but in the end it all about "how it sounds" and that can't be determined by Transfer Function testing - only listening. After the laboratory testing, come the listening tests.</p><p></p><p>Let me try and properly articulate a few thoughts - hopefully this comes across and I can organize it well enough to do so.</p><p></p><p>Something I find interesting is the degree of expertise we use when choosing drivers, driver combinations, waveguides, etc. I customize many many things - working on some baffles for shop alarm system motion sensors so they well detect bad guys and not my dogs. Did a relocation of sensors about a month ago, worked fine until Thursday, then I got a call from alarm company, notified police and hauled ass back to my house to review video from security cameras and saw one of my dogs set it off. Did a nozzle/jet change on 20" surface cleaner on 13hp pressure washer to optimize working pressure. Been tuning engines for 50+ years starting with a 3hp flathead on a mini-bike and cox control line model airplane engines. Dirt bike, racing go-karts and even assisted uncle tuning blown alcohol 540' drag boat. Also, audio gear - started building home stereo speakers when I was about 15. Built amps, tube and solid state and preamps from both kits and scratch from schematics.</p><p></p><p>Many items in shop are custom - air manifold system, and so on - you guys get my drift. I'm a gearhead and tuner by nature.</p><p></p><p>I just did a full rebuild on the small studio system which is the monitor setup for this PC and also studio for the DJ business music library. Pictures attached. It just didn't sound good - ended up most of the problem was the on-board sound in the computer - D/A conversion sounded crappy. I changed the DSC from a <a href="http://i.viglink.com/?key=5cf16c336e47fafee363278702686ee9&insertId=19d0c435725e8406&type=L&exp=-1%3Ana%3A0&libId=k79a7fdh01012yw0000DAaqiujeg&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fsoundforums.net%2Fcommunity%2Fthreads%2Fdouble-15-and-horn-drum-fill.211104%2F%23post-213667&v=1&iid=19d0c435725e8406&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fsoundforums.net%2Fcommunity%2Fwhats-new%2Fposts%2F978024%2F&title=Double%2015%E2%80%9D%20and%20Horn%20Drum%20Fill%20%7C%20Sound%20Forums&txt=%3Cspan%3EeBay%3C%2Fspan%3E" target="_blank">eBay</a> special to a dbx Driverack PA2 and also pulled the JBL 2426 out of the sub and installed a Dayton 15" I had laying around - much better suited for studio application subwoofer. System sounds good now, real good - good enough to serve as a studio reference standard for my needs.</p><p></p><p>With audio we strive to attain a combination of elements, in most cases intended for a specific application or set of conditions. i.e. drum fill and general purpose PA use monitor. Take 50 different designs, all in this class and they will each sound different, unique nuances separate them - but to trained ears, musicians engineers audiophiles - there will be noticeable differences. Some will "sound good" and some "not so good" when compared to the rest.</p><p></p><p>Glad I found this place to exchange ideas with like minded people. It's really interesting to watch someone else practicing the art of design, watching the progress, the decision making along the path and in the end, the results.</p><p></p><p>The design process for DIY as noted here, is exactly what manufacturers do, they have better toys in the lab, but also face constraints that we don't. They have to work around business case and marketing and we don't. I think many times those that don't DIY loose sight of this. Not taking a shot at anyone here. But, a pre-packaged design isn't always the best solution nor does it always offer the best performance.</p><p></p><p>Take a JBL 2226, like the one I pulled out of the sub. It's a good general purpose workhorse 15" driver and can be successfully used for just about any application. I will be using them in two-way stage monitors and two-way some traps. It worked as a sub, but not as well as the Dayton that replaced it. That being said, the Dayton wouldn't be worth a schitt in the two-way stage monitor. Decisions and choices is the name of the game.</p><p></p><p>I'm making a re-entry into regional sound, anything from a single mic at a neighborhood association or school PTA meeting to a 2000 seat rock show to include a custom DJ system. The gear has to be scaleable and flexible. For the speakers, DJ, mains, monitors, nothing in the inventory will be stock out of the box commercially available gear - all is or will be custom built/modified for specific purpose. I don't think regional sound is high on the list for manufacturers due simply to where the market lies. We're in a unique place, and optimal solutions are many times unavailable in commercial packages IMO. Maybe just change the wiring format on the Neutrik's to Male/Female and associated speaker input/output panels - but, there's always something I want to change to best suit my needs.</p><p></p><p>The "Point Source" -vs- "Array" battles are amusing at the very least. Many times reminiscent of Ford -vs- Chevy -vs- MOPAR. I have a mix of both. Array elements can be used any way ya want and scale real well - in pairs on tripods to full-on hangs. Due to the overall versatility, packaging and light weight, they make a good choice for a small regional operator.</p><p></p><p>Maybe I'm just a tweaker - I'm ok with that too - as it's the curse of being an engineer.</p><p></p><p>Being a lifelong designer/builder it's a good fit to work in a field that has is wide open to innovation and creativity.</p><p></p><p>Rock on ladies and gents. Appreciate you sharing your adventures.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Steve White, post: 213669, member: 12457"] Joris, you should start another thread brother. Your input could get lost over time and your sharing the trials and tribulations of component/system design is interesting for those of us that are experienced with it and should prove to be invaluable to newer engineers just starting down this path. The thought process and testing is an interesting read. No charts or graphs - they have their place - but in the end it all about "how it sounds" and that can't be determined by Transfer Function testing - only listening. After the laboratory testing, come the listening tests. Let me try and properly articulate a few thoughts - hopefully this comes across and I can organize it well enough to do so. Something I find interesting is the degree of expertise we use when choosing drivers, driver combinations, waveguides, etc. I customize many many things - working on some baffles for shop alarm system motion sensors so they well detect bad guys and not my dogs. Did a relocation of sensors about a month ago, worked fine until Thursday, then I got a call from alarm company, notified police and hauled ass back to my house to review video from security cameras and saw one of my dogs set it off. Did a nozzle/jet change on 20" surface cleaner on 13hp pressure washer to optimize working pressure. Been tuning engines for 50+ years starting with a 3hp flathead on a mini-bike and cox control line model airplane engines. Dirt bike, racing go-karts and even assisted uncle tuning blown alcohol 540' drag boat. Also, audio gear - started building home stereo speakers when I was about 15. Built amps, tube and solid state and preamps from both kits and scratch from schematics. Many items in shop are custom - air manifold system, and so on - you guys get my drift. I'm a gearhead and tuner by nature. I just did a full rebuild on the small studio system which is the monitor setup for this PC and also studio for the DJ business music library. Pictures attached. It just didn't sound good - ended up most of the problem was the on-board sound in the computer - D/A conversion sounded crappy. I changed the DSC from a [URL='http://i.viglink.com/?key=5cf16c336e47fafee363278702686ee9&insertId=19d0c435725e8406&type=L&exp=-1%3Ana%3A0&libId=k79a7fdh01012yw0000DAaqiujeg&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fsoundforums.net%2Fcommunity%2Fthreads%2Fdouble-15-and-horn-drum-fill.211104%2F%23post-213667&v=1&iid=19d0c435725e8406&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fsoundforums.net%2Fcommunity%2Fwhats-new%2Fposts%2F978024%2F&title=Double%2015%E2%80%9D%20and%20Horn%20Drum%20Fill%20%7C%20Sound%20Forums&txt=%3Cspan%3EeBay%3C%2Fspan%3E']eBay[/URL] special to a dbx Driverack PA2 and also pulled the JBL 2426 out of the sub and installed a Dayton 15" I had laying around - much better suited for studio application subwoofer. System sounds good now, real good - good enough to serve as a studio reference standard for my needs. With audio we strive to attain a combination of elements, in most cases intended for a specific application or set of conditions. i.e. drum fill and general purpose PA use monitor. Take 50 different designs, all in this class and they will each sound different, unique nuances separate them - but to trained ears, musicians engineers audiophiles - there will be noticeable differences. Some will "sound good" and some "not so good" when compared to the rest. Glad I found this place to exchange ideas with like minded people. It's really interesting to watch someone else practicing the art of design, watching the progress, the decision making along the path and in the end, the results. The design process for DIY as noted here, is exactly what manufacturers do, they have better toys in the lab, but also face constraints that we don't. They have to work around business case and marketing and we don't. I think many times those that don't DIY loose sight of this. Not taking a shot at anyone here. But, a pre-packaged design isn't always the best solution nor does it always offer the best performance. Take a JBL 2226, like the one I pulled out of the sub. It's a good general purpose workhorse 15" driver and can be successfully used for just about any application. I will be using them in two-way stage monitors and two-way some traps. It worked as a sub, but not as well as the Dayton that replaced it. That being said, the Dayton wouldn't be worth a schitt in the two-way stage monitor. Decisions and choices is the name of the game. I'm making a re-entry into regional sound, anything from a single mic at a neighborhood association or school PTA meeting to a 2000 seat rock show to include a custom DJ system. The gear has to be scaleable and flexible. For the speakers, DJ, mains, monitors, nothing in the inventory will be stock out of the box commercially available gear - all is or will be custom built/modified for specific purpose. I don't think regional sound is high on the list for manufacturers due simply to where the market lies. We're in a unique place, and optimal solutions are many times unavailable in commercial packages IMO. Maybe just change the wiring format on the Neutrik's to Male/Female and associated speaker input/output panels - but, there's always something I want to change to best suit my needs. The "Point Source" -vs- "Array" battles are amusing at the very least. Many times reminiscent of Ford -vs- Chevy -vs- MOPAR. I have a mix of both. Array elements can be used any way ya want and scale real well - in pairs on tripods to full-on hangs. Due to the overall versatility, packaging and light weight, they make a good choice for a small regional operator. Maybe I'm just a tweaker - I'm ok with that too - as it's the curse of being an engineer. Being a lifelong designer/builder it's a good fit to work in a field that has is wide open to innovation and creativity. Rock on ladies and gents. Appreciate you sharing your adventures. [/QUOTE]
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