E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

S

Steve Hurt

Junior
Jan 31, 2011
456
5
18
I've done 2 shows lately with bands that use electronic drum kits and guitars through modelers straight into the PA.
Different bands. Same problem. Way to much low end in FOH.

One of the occasions was on a festival with 4 other bands and the low end abundance confusion wasn't there with the other bands. Are E-drums that different sonically?

I don't normally use the FOH EQ to mix, but it seemed to be needed. Especially since they changed presets on the drums on a song by song basis.
Seems like they have their "10 db more in the subs" already mixed in.

So, anyone had a similar experience with an abundance of lows in FOH problem with e-drums and stage monitors.
How did you fix it?
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Bout all you can do is have them tweak the kit inside the drum module, but then they may or may not like the reults because what sounds good to their ears always doesn't relate how it sounds to the room your mixing in.

Depending on what drum module like a Roland TD-20 kit has direct out sends which can be assignable.
For example the e-drummer I worked with in the past fed me 5 sends like this.
1 for kick unproessed (since Roland has a a dial down method)
1 for snare unprocessed
1 grouped toms unprocessed
1 HH
1 gruoped Cymbals
1 mono send from mian out of module that was for only his drum monioting and left out of FOH mix since the main out has all the processed kits.

That way when tweaking for the e-kit mix I'm not tweaking the whole kit with just a stereo or mono feed which effect the whole kit.
I have way more control of the direct out sends since some of the sends are individual kit peices so if I need to cut a little low end on the toms it doesn't effect the whole kit.

That way me and the e-drummer have the best of both worlds I got a e-kit that I have way more control of mixing and I can send the mono send to his drum monitor so he's got his favorite tweaked out custom kit he dial up in his headphones which stay the heck out my FOH mix.8)~8-)~:cool:
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Thanks to Steve Tarak for some phone time and info sharing!
________________________________________

Some more detail:

I've worked with both bands before.

"Band A"
Last time I worked with them, they had an acoustic kick drum and I had no issues at all. E-kick this time.
Drums were mixed to one channel kick, snare, everything. The drummer says he'll split the kick out next time. The real cymbals were mic'd and in the drummers mix.
The band is a big one - 8 monitors including a drum sub - 6 vocalists, etc

"Band B"
I worked with them in my the studio with the exact same drum sounds and we were happy.
I've also done sound for them before, but back they used 2 wedges, a drummer on ears, and Yamaha Club 115's w/no subs
Now at 4 mixes a bigger PA with real subs things were different

I think both bands have decent drum kit sounds programmed (other than the kick)
My bet is the issues are with the kick EQ, and the amount of drums in the monitor spill

Current plan is
1) Try backing the subs amp down to something like "+3db" instead of "+10db" that is common. I think the drums have the +10db already built into their sounds!
2) Hi-pass all the monitors higher (except the drummers) monitors to keep the lows out of the mics
3) Try vocal mics with tighter patterns
4) Anything suggested in this thread that sounds plausible

fwiw, I did get both bands sounding good eventually, just took longer than I like to take.
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

This is my current e-kit set up

laptop MBP loaded with EZdrummer via Preonus firewire/midi interface dry kit > FOH soundman :)~:-)~:smile:

Have fun with the drummer that changes kit patches song by song you'll have your work cut out and hope he's not using his on board TD-20 mixer to crank up the kick when you turn down the sub. :(~:-(~:sad:
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Bennett Prescott said:
It seems weird to me that you are trying to solve what I view as a source problem with a system solution... do you not have enough EQ on the desk? High pass?
Click to expand...


IMO I think he just don't have enough of control of the e-kit esp with a e-drummer changing kit patches on every other song like the KB player that doesn't level the patches out. So the OP doesn't know if one patch has toms or kick that have a huge boost on the lows or not and wasn't programed on his PA rig.
Sure HPF will work some what but not gonna solve the mud on the FOH that some of the e-kit patches can create. I do know that Roland modules that doesn't have the direct out sends you can still split the kit in two and run kick on one main out and the rest of the kit on the other.
Personally I can't stand the sound of Roland drum synthetic kits. :roll:
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Tommy Stone said:
IMO I think he just don't have enough of control of the e-kit esp with a e-drummer changing kit patches on every other song like the KB player that doesn't level the patches out. So the OP doesn't know if one patch has toms or kick that have a huge boost on the lows or not and wasn't programed on his PA rig.
Sure HPF will work some what but not gonna solve the mud on the FOH that some of the e-kit patches can create. I do know that Roland modules that doesn't have the direct out sends you can still split the kit in two and run kick on one main out and the rest of the kit on the other.
Personally I can't stand the sound of Roland drum synthetic kits. :roll:
Click to expand...

I partially have to agree with you about the sound. I had to deal with the TD10 expanded unit in a church. I didn’t like the stock out of the box sounds but found with a fair amount of time spent tweaking the settings I liked the way they could sound. But I feel you have to split the outputs about as far as you can and be careful of the built in effects they come out on top of something but I can’t remember where that is. And the drummer always wants it to sound different in his mix then what works in the house.

I personally think electronic drums work best when the drummer is wearing IEMs and has a butt kicker attached to their throne.
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX said:
I partially have to agree with you about the sound. I had to deal with the TD10 expanded unit in a church. I didn’t like the stock out of the box sounds but found with a fair amount of time spent tweaking the settings I liked the way they could sound. But I feel you have to split the outputs about as far as you can and be careful of the built in effects they come out on top of something but I can’t remember where that is. And the drummer always wants it to sound different in his mix then what works in the house.

I personally think electronic drums work best when the drummer is wearing IEMs and has a butt kicker attached to their throne.
Click to expand...


I do know Roland uses a dial down method which is easier to take away from something that might be over bearing.
I agree IEMs or even headphones (I know the looks of headphones yuk)) but IMO is a great choice for e-kit monitoring. I thought the whole purpose of e-kits is to bring down the stage volume?
But here we got a guy that using a sub as part of a drum wedge one band and the other with a pair of Yamaha's. I dunno seems to me like to much drum monitoring rig. I dunno I'm not a pro nor that seasoned sound man and just know that direct sends with e-kits is the best way to go for more on the fly control.
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Bennett Prescott said:
It seems weird to me that you are trying to solve what I view as a source problem with a system solution... do you not have enough EQ on the desk? High pass?
Click to expand...

On the EQ, you're pretty close. It took a combination of Hi pass AND a (wide) low shelf in both situations to get things under control.


I guess one question that I'm asking is:

Assuming: A hot ("+10db low end") low end is pretty standard system setup.
Question: Do people stick with this hot low end setup when using electronic drums, or do systems get set a little flatter since the low end is already compressed and mastered hot in the source material (the drum samples)

I'm not one for altering the crossover during a show, but I keep thinking that's what I should have done
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Steve Hurt said:
I'm not one for altering the crossover during a show, but I keep thinking that's what I should have done
Click to expand...

Changing the electrical crossover point obviously changes the acoustical crossover, and therefore the alignment of the tops to the subs. A very bad idea during the show.

If someone presents me with a source with excessive bass, I use the EQ until it's where I want it. I don't see what the big deal is about someone having bassy drums? Ever run a DJ through your system?
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Steve Hurt said:
On the EQ, you're pretty close. It took a combination of Hi pass AND a (wide) low shelf in both situations to get things under control.


I guess one question that I'm asking is:

Assuming: A hot ("+10db low end") low end is pretty standard system setup.
Question: Do people stick with this hot low end setup when using electronic drums, or do systems get set a little flatter since the low end is already compressed and mastered hot in the source material (the drum samples)

I'm not one for altering the crossover during a show, but I keep thinking that's what I should have done
Click to expand...

Maybe this would be a good time for Aux fed subs?

Douglas R. Allen
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Silas Pradetto said:
Changing the electrical crossover point obviously changes the acoustical crossover, and therefore the alignment of the tops to the subs. A very bad idea during the show.
Click to expand...

One downfall of Aux Fed Subs is that varying the level of the sub send will effectively change the acoustical crossover, thereby changing your alignment. It might be a better compromise to lower the sub send and throw off the alignment a bit to keep the bass under control, but that would be something you'd have to determine for yourself. I know I've done it, even though it goes against my 'alignment sense'. It also depends how good the alignment is - if you're pretty much exactly phase-matched for several octaves on either side of the acoustical crossover (this rarely happens, but one octave is pretty usual), then varying the sub send level may not be detrimental at all.

Also, remember that perfect alignment can only be had for a very small portion of a room, the rest is already a compromise. I'm also doubting that many people actually go through the same thought process I do every time I enter a venue or a situation just like this, since I'm probably just adding complexity to a show that doesn't really require everything to be absolutely perfect.

I guess it all comes down to, 'If it sounds good, it is good'.

Apologies for the stream-of-consciousness post.
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Douglas R. Allen said:
Maybe this would be a good time for Aux fed subs?

Douglas R. Allen
Click to expand...


I gotta ask if you only have one or two sends from the e-kit stereo or mono main out feeding one or two channels on the mixer with the whole
e-kit in those channels how would aux fed sub effect the e-kit? Wouldn't it sound weird? I dunno just asking, because I'm not a pro sound tech by any means, and just sharing my experience dealing will e-drummers that have I ran across in the past.

IME I've had a few e-drummers with some pretty whacked out drum kit patches that can wreck havoc on FOH mix and learned to use direct outs and mix them like you would if you had a miced out acoustic kit so you got more control at the mixer and are not at the mercy of the e-drummer with some crazy whacked out drum kit patch.

Not to mention the changing kits on every other song like a KB player that has different patch levels because he didn't take time to even out all the patches. The same applies to e-kits in my experience with them.
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Tommy Stone said:
I gotta ask if you only have one or two sends from the e-kit stereo or mono main out feeding one or two channels on the mixer with the whole
e-kit in those channels how would aux fed sub effect the e-kit? Wouldn't it sound weird? I dunno just asking, because I'm not a pro sound tech by any means, and just sharing my experience dealing will e-drummers that have I ran across in the past.

IME I've had a few e-drummers with some pretty whacked out drum kit patches that can wreck havoc on FOH mix and learned to use direct outs and mix them like you would if you had a miced out acoustic kit so you got more control at the mixer and are not at the mercy of the e-drummer with some crazy whacked out drum kit patch.

Not to mention the changing kits on every other song like a KB player that has different patch levels because he didn't take time to even out all the patches. The same applies to e-kits in my experience with them.
Click to expand...

I can only speak for myself but to me its easier to adjust the Aux sub level than an eq on the fly with the large volume changes coming at me like your talking about. Been there. I have a digital desk with my Aux send to the subs on a fader layer. 1 button push puts me on that layer. With a 10db level change in the bass it seems faster to just adjust the send level. Yes it does effect the crossover point. But with level changes as wide as your talking about its a better / faster band-Aid, at least to me.
Having direct outs is better than just a stereo pair sometimes. But with Bass drum, Snare, Toms, High Hat/Cymbals on their own send if the patch changes are whacked out then you have up to 7 channels now to mix on the fly. ( if the cymbals-toms are in stereo.)

As we know the best fix is to work with the drummer. One thing that has worked for me was to record the drummer and let them hear how much the kit changes in level. People don't seem to notice as much in the heat of things.

Douglas R. Allen
 
Re: E-drums , stage monitors, and low end build up in FOH

Douglas R. Allen said:
I can only speak for myself but to me its easier to adjust the Aux sub level than an eq on the fly with the large volume changes coming at me like your talking about. Been there. I have a digital desk with my Aux send to the subs on a fader layer. 1 button push puts me on that layer. With a 10db level change in the bass it seems faster to just adjust the send level. Yes it does effect the crossover point. But with level changes as wide as your talking about its a better / faster band-Aid, at least to me.
Having direct outs is better than just a stereo pair sometimes. But with Bass drum, Snare, Toms, High Hat/Cymbals on their own send if the patch changes are whacked out then you have up to 7 channels now to mix on the fly. ( if the cymbals-toms are in stereo.)

As we know the best fix is to work with the drummer. One thing that has worked for me was to record the drummer and let them hear how much the kit changes in level. People don't seem to notice as much in the heat of things.

Douglas R. Allen
Click to expand...


Wow push button must be nice but yea I agree that's way faster fix then my method as you can tell I'm still rookie.
With our e-kit we use one kit and one kit only and make the proper adjustment and with Ezdrummer it just maybe
crank up the cymbals a little louder and set it and forget it and we're done. Then have other e-drummer what vex pack we're using? :lol:
 
Top Bottom