Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

Rafi Singer

Freshman
This might be an obvious answer, but I figured I'd ask it anyhow.

I was taking a look at the QSC PL4.0's and saw that they use a twist-lock 30A connector. This would prove to be somewhat impractical, as some of the locations I would want to use it would not have that type of receptacle available. Assuming I could have a separate circuit for the subs, is there anything inherently dangerous/bad about using an adapter to plug it into a standard Edison 20A outlet? As mentioned by a post on PSW, there is the risk of tripping a breaker, but is there any other inherent risk such as heat, frying components, etc?
 
Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

There is a distinction between "manufacturer approved/UL approved/best practice" and "works in a qualified sense".

The amp is designed with a 30 amp cord because that's what's required to operate the amp to its design specs. They didn't just put that on there to be mean. If you are using this amp in an install situation, get the right 30A service for it.

If you are using this amp in a portable situation where 30A service won't be available, you can build an adapter cord as you describe so you can plug the amp into a 20A circuit. You won't burn anything up or damage the amp, but you risk blowing the breaker when running the amp hard.

Using an adapter may be preferable to replacing the amp's plug in that you won't void the warranty by modifying the amp.

By the way, this isn't OK in the reverse direction - you can't safely make an adapter providing a 20A receptacle from a 30A circuit without also providing 20A overcurrent protection.
 
Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

The purpose of a breaker is to protect all downstream wire and components from too much current (most of the time too much current means too much heat, and therefore fire).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with imposing a lower-rated breaker on a higher-rated connector and wire. Obviously, you won't have all the current you might need available, but using the amp versus not using it is probably more important than the slight loss in peak power.

As TJ mentioned, it is NEVER allowable to do this backward. You cannot provide an unprotected load rated for 20-amps with a 30-amp supply.

PS - NEC does allow for undersized, unprotected feeder in some extremely select tapped power situations. They would never be encountered in a portable power situation, though.
 
Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

The purpose of a breaker is to protect all downstream wire and components from too much current (most of the time too much current means too much heat, and therefore fire).

Honestly, a breaker is really only there to protect the wire from overheating, and protect everything else from a short circuit condition. The instantaneous current from a short is in the tens of thousands of amps... the rating of the branch circuit over-current device is largely irrelevant. You'll often see breakers with a 10 kA or 20 kA rating. This is what they can withstand in a short circuit condition. If you do the math on the resistance of a 50 ft piece of 12 gauge at 120VAC you'll see why they have those ratings. Pretty much all standard branch circuit over-current devices designed for 120V use, no matter their nameplate rating, will have a 10kA rating. Main breakers will have a 20 kA rating.

Think about a standard floor lamp. It might have a 3-way 50/100/150W bulb in it. That's about 1/2, 3/4 and 1 amp (roughly). It will have a zip cord wire on it (SVT jacket) and probably is 16 or 18 gauge wire, good for about 5 amps of current. In a short circuit condition, it doesn't matter what the branch circuit is rated at. In the case of most cord an plug connected equipment in your average home, the device in question typically uses well less than half of the current the circuit is rated for. I.e. a TV uses about 1-2 amps but is usually plugged into a 15 or 20A circuit.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about connecting a device that uses less current that a given circuit is rated for. Most amplifiers have internal current protection (weather through a fuse or breaker).

PS - NEC does allow for undersized, unprotected feeder in some extremely select tapped power situations. They would never be encountered in a portable power situation, though.

It also allows for the connection of 15A receptacles to a 20A circuit breaker in a home so long as the wiring is 12 gauge.

The concern over matching amperage to amperage is a little strange IMO. Voltage keying on connectors makes sense because it can damage equipment not able to handle higher values. A better solution for current ratings would be that every piece of cord and plug connected equipment have it's own current protection based on it's typical current draw and wire sizing. Then all connectors (outlet and plug) should be rated in "classes." Low, medium and High. Something like 5-50, 50-100, and 100 and above or something. The outlets could be designed to have very wide slots, that could deliver up to the maximum current of the breaker, but allow smaller blades to fit (for smaller devices).

These are mostly my musings on the strange and sometimes contradictory regulations regarding current protection and plug/outlet ratings for cord and plug connected equipment. They should not be used to justify violating any current electrical codes or considered advice on how to properly supply or distribute electrical current in a home or to portable equipment.
 
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Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

Honestly, a breaker is really only there to protect the wire from overheating, and protect everything else from a short circuit condition. The instantaneous current from a short is in the tens of thousands of amps... the rating of the branch circuit over-current device is largely irrelevant. You'll often see breakers with a 10 kA or 20 kA rating. This is what they can withstand in a short circuit condition. If you do the math on the resistance of a 50 ft piece of 12 gauge at 120VAC you'll see why they have those ratings. Pretty much all standard branch circuit over-current devices designed for 120V use, no matter their nameplate rating, will have a 10kA rating. Main breakers will have a 20 kA rating.
Breakers have that high a rating meaning they can successfully disconnect a 10,000amp current without fusing together. This doesn't necessarily mean that every short is 10,000 amps.

Though the current spike in a short circuit situation is surely a lot of power quickly, breakers still work on thermal mass - it takes time at any given overcurrent level to trip the breaker, which is why the branch breaker is usually what blows (if it blows) and not something upstream, as the branch breaker has the least themal mass.

I've watched an electrician friend of mine working on 277v lighting circuits live (gloves, insulated tools, etc), and have witnessed multiple shorts to ground without even the branch breaker blowing. My electrician friend commented that this has happened to him before (yes I know, he shouldn't be working on a circuit like this live, and I don't want to know how many times he's been in that situation). This kind of situation (arcing, not working on live circuits) is what has precipitated the arc-fault breaker, because in the regulator's minds, arcs that don't blow breakers are common enough to be a substantial safety issue.

I certainly agree with you that the NEC is confusing and contradictory at best, and I'd surely like fewer "standards" for plugs, but I'm not sure if what you propose makes it simpler or more complicated.
 
Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

Breakers have that high a rating meaning they can successfully disconnect a 10,000amp current without fusing together. This doesn't necessarily mean that every short is 10,000 amps.

I agree, however a real low impedance fault to ground is not the situation that the nameplate rating of a circuit breaker is really designed for. Shorts will typically be at least several hundered amperes and will cause the breaker to trip in a very short amount of time.

Though the current spike in a short circuit situation is surely a lot of power quickly, breakers still work on thermal mass - it takes time at any given overcurrent level to trip the breaker, which is why the branch breaker is usually what blows (if it blows) and not something upstream, as the branch breaker has the least themal mass.

Not always. Some circuit breakers are both thermal and magnetic. Square-D QO series are for example.

I've watched an electrician friend of mine working on 277v lighting circuits live (gloves, insulated tools, etc), and have witnessed multiple shorts to ground without even the branch breaker blowing. My electrician friend commented that this has happened to him before (yes I know, he shouldn't be working on a circuit like this live, and I don't want to know how many times he's been in that situation). This kind of situation (arcing, not working on live circuits) is what has precipitated the arc-fault breaker, because in the regulator's minds, arcs that don't blow breakers are common enough to be a substantial safety issue.

I wouldn't expect an Arc to dissapate much power. The impedance in air is very high, so the current flow would be minimal... dangerous to start fires but not dangerous in a metal heating sense.
 
Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

I wouldn't expect an Arc to dissapate much power. The impedance in air is very high, so the current flow would be minimal... dangerous to start fires but not dangerous in a metal heating sense.
I would do more research on that if I were you. Electrical arcs can be very low resistance as they by definition flow through an ionized air path. This is why switching a high current source off is so difficult.
 
Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

I wouldn't expect an Arc to dissapate much power. The impedance in air is very high, so the current flow would be minimal... dangerous to start fires but not dangerous in a metal heating sense.
That's an interesting theory, so arc welding would not result in hot material?
 
Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

And arc welding doesn't require significant current?

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Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

I would do more research on that if I were you. Electrical arcs can be very low resistance as they by definition flow through an ionized air path. This is why switching a high current source off is so difficult.

+1... count the amps in a lightning bolt... The up-strike ionizes a path, the down-stroke follows it back down with some serious current that makes a loud report just from heating the air nearby. That heat and sound is evidence of the current and power.

That said, it takes significant voltage potential to support that ionized path. Arc welding is low voltage (but high current), and pretty much requires touching the metal to metal to strike an arc (been there, done that).

Large inductive loads can cause arcing in relays that may interfere with opening, if the arcing generates enough heat to weld the relay contacts closed. This should be hard to do, but it happens if there is enough magnetic flux to keep the arc going long enough.



JR
 
Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

We're talking about two totally different situations here. The air gap distance in a welding situation is much, much lower.

My point was that arcing is not why we have breakers. If an arc to ground did have enough current flow, it would trip the breaker. It's why, as TJ eluded, we have arc fault breakers.
 
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Re: Electrical safety question (xposted from PSW)

Brain. Explosion.

Whenever I read threads like this, it makes me wish I was 30 years in to my career and knew this stuff for things I am doing now. I don't know how one could get by in this industry and not know much of this stuff.

Carry on gents, and continue talking over my head because dadgum I love it.