Employer fair play or foul?

Lisa Lane-Collins

Sophomore
Dec 9, 2012
270
0
16
Adelaide, Australia
This Saturday I ran late for work (setting up and sound checking a band in a front bar, for a flat rate of $40 - aka very very very cheap, incredibly matey mates rates). When I arrived most of the setting up had been done by the musician, however I still completed and did the sound check same as always. When I went to invoice the bar I was told "I've been told not to pay you tonight, you're to call the boss on Monday". When I pressed for further information I was told it was because I had run late and they didn't want to pay me the full fee.

A bit of background. I've worked at this pub for almost 6 years (it's the same venue that gave me grief about looking shabby). In that time I have never previously been financially penalised for running late, I have sometimes had to wait around unspecified amounts for time for Bands that run late and I have consistently gone above and beyond the job description by waiting until the band commences its first set and checking everything is ok before leaving (I suspect the boss does not realise this last fact). In short, for 6 years it has been a well oiled machine (for the first 4 years I was effectively un-managed, I just knew to turn up and the bar knew to pay me)....what I'm trying to say is that to my mind, doing that job for $40, I'm kind of doing them a favour by doing it well and not asking for more pay. (Evidently they do not feel the same way).

My main question is, as a sole contractor, do I have the right to be angry about them withholding pay like this? And waiting until the job was completed to tell me there is an issue?



......I was late because a great chunk of my PA gear was stolen, I'm cut that no one rang me to ask (I tried ringing through the pub several times but no one picked up), they just make this assumption that I'm, I don't know, sitting around my house twiddling my thumbs being late for work out of a sense of contempt for the job or something and should be punished. Unreasonable to want more respect/to be given the benefit of the doubt having been there so long?

(Pretty much psyched up to resign on Monday, it becomes increasingly apparent that I am not and will never be respected there, speaking of which, if anyone has any good scripts for the conversation with the boss, lay them on me.)
 
Last edited:
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Ok Lisa, Here is the very best advice I can give you or anyone else. No matter what anyone else in this world does you still should always be at your excellence. This means ALWAYS being at your very best including attitude, dress, behavior, and punctuality. NO EXCEPTIONS! Excuses are for losers and slackers. These are very easy habits to have if you make them important. I was once told by a friend of mine who is a doctor, "No matter where I am or what I am doing, I am always a doctor." For that reason she always held herself to a very high standard.

Things happen in life that are beyond your control but what is in your control is a phone. If you ever have a problem getting to a gig on time make the phone call to the person in charge as soon as you see that you are going to run behind, not one minute until you are supposed to be there. This is just one example.

I also understand that particular job is "not as good as it might be" to say the least. Forget the circumstances of the job. Consider it and any other gig, no matter how small, as another opportunity to define who the professional sound engineer Lisa Lane-Collins is. Decide who you are as an engineer and be that person. No ifs ands or buts. NO EXCEPTIONS. Especially in those circumstances "You are always an engineer."

I truly expect to see great things from you both now and in the future, that is why I am taking the time to write this. There are people who get in this industry for many different reasons but the ones who stay and excel typically have a few things in common. Professionalism is one of the main ones. We all use our real names on this forum for several good reasons. Accountability is one of the main ones. This is a very small community and we hold ourselves to a very high standard.

Another thing is we all have fun. We get paid to listen to bands and our opinion really counts, after all we are in control of all the knobs and faders:)
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

+1 on Eric.

There are a few events I do each year either very cheaply or free; and on those events I give the same amount of attention, care etc that I give to the gigs which pay enough to enable me to be charitable on these events.

Don't underestimate the power of relationships. Of equal value to your skills is the relationships you have with people who you work with and for; and networking for future work.

If you've been at that venue for a long time, and this has come out of the blue, then something may be amiss. It could be as simple as someone wanting to impress their boss by saving $40 for the club (AKA loser of a person)... or it could be a last straw/one bridge too far kind of thing. If you've been building and investing into your relationship with the venue maybe this kind of thing wouldn't have come as a surprise - for whatever reason ?

I guess i'm trying to say that there may be more to add to this story once you've met; there may be things they want to say that you don't know about yet.

I would encourage you not to burn bridges though - as tempting as it can be.

Andrew
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Try for a little less drama...

Talk to the management and after they understand the situation figure out whether the gig is worth continuing. If you are under-charging them for the work performed now may be a time to discuss that. Don't go into the meeting/discussion with a chip on your shoulder, always be professional, while they are telegraphing that they are dissatisfied with your behavior.

JR
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Things happen in life that are beyond your control but what is in your control is a phone. If you ever have a problem getting to a gig on time make the phone call to the person in charge as soon as you see that you are going to run behind, not one minute until you are supposed to be there. This is just one example.

+1 Bolded for emphasis! I was just 4 minutes late for a call yesterday - had to troubleshoot a PA system elsewhere - and still had the courtesy to call my boss and let him know I'd be there ASAP, that combined with the fact that I'm usually early for calls makes a big difference when the guy in charge is trying to decide who to give work to.

That aside, that whole arrangement is not a good one imo. $40 is a joke, not even worth stepping out of my house as far as I'm concerned. The other part that rubs me wrong - because I've been burned on it in the past - is bar owners that are too cheap to pay a tech for the night, so they ask you to come in and do a quick sound check so that "bar staff can run the system that night". It's bullocks, the first time something goes wrong they're going to call you expecting you to run back and fix it (at no additional charge), and if you happen to be at another engagement and can't come back then you are going to be the bad guy (in the eyes of both the musician and the bar owner). I will never do a job like that again, too much headache.
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

I agree about attitude. Lately I have starting difficult conversations about work situations where I am actually "donating" extra time to the client(usually a friend) by letting them know that I am on their side and a great show for all involved is my primary concern. Strange as it seems, many people don't know this and are puzzled when all the details are brought to their attention. I am in full understanding of the importance of these "relationships", but sometimes it is a battle best left unfought.
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Hi Lisa-

I think some of my esteemed colleagues have overlooked part of your post:

......I was late because a great chunk of my PA gear was stolen, I'm cut that no one rang me to ask (I tried ringing through the pub several times but no one picked up), they just make this assumption that I'm, I don't know, sitting around my house twiddling my thumbs being late for work out of a sense of contempt for the job or something and should be punished. Unreasonable to want more respect/to be given the benefit of the doubt having been there so long?

This is the pub owned by the 2 sisters? I think I suggested previously that the AlphaSis was looking for a reason to get you out the door. Perhaps she has bi-polar disorder and her mood has swung back, you're the target of the moment. If this is the same pub, the situation has been toxic for some time, why are you still there?

Here is my suggestion to you. Get out of the bars. Sure, the music is fun and most of the players you work with are good folks... but too many pubs, clubs and bars are run by untreated/unrecovered drunks, addicts, psychopaths, schizophrenics and bi-polar folks. If you want a life that has less drama, you need away from people whose nature is dramatic.

Consider hotel AV as your next step. The pay sucks less than what you're making now, the ingratitude will come from a 'higher class' of people and you'll have the opportunity to learn lighting, video, TCP/IP networking, projection, radio mics, intercoms.... things that will be useful to you as you move up. It will also help you get your attitude together and develop your ability to prioritize conflicting tasks (often assigned simultaneously by the same person). Hotel AV has a dress code; you'll never question your wardrobe choices, it will be done for you. In a couple of years you'll either be promoted or stark raving mad, sometimes you get both. 8)~8-)~:cool:

Like another poster mentioned, I see you as having potential. You have passion and tenacity, those are important character traits. What you don't have is local mentoring and guidance, the kind that comes from someone who knows your local market and the personalities therein. This is why I suggested the structured environment of hotel/corporate AV.

I will leave you with another pair of thoughts that often intertwine: "Whatever ain't physics, is psychology" and "There are two kinds of problems: the kind you can fix with money, and the kind money can't help."

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Another thing you might do is play the game where you pretend to be the other person. I wonder if the AlphaSis perhaps feels that you owe her for all she has done for you. How skilled were you when you first started working there, what have you learned since. My guess is she feels she has done you a major favor by LETTING you play with the equipment. Have you checked out jobs at local AV companies. It can be a steady check and might be a good option now. As far as the stolen gear, you really have to be professional about things like that, a written contract is a must and the owner must realize that as long as your stuff is in their house, They are responsible for it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

I think you just need to accept that you didn't fulfill your part of the bargain and "negotiate" a fair payment on monday. You might have a point about the phone not being picked up, but that just sounds like an excuse. Explain the situation, including the failed attempt to phone, but accept that being late was your mistake and apologize for what happened. If this is normally a two hour job and you were one hour late, then accept half pay, that is fair. It is important that you do this because you are a pro that accepts responsibility, not because you are a pushover that can be treated in any way a manager wants to. Same with the stolen kit, don't be a pushover, but at the same time show professionalism by absorbing a part of the loss. Negotiate an arrangement that both can live with.

Finally, grow up and realize that life isn't fair, very few people are going to treat you fair.
People do what serves their self-interest, go with that and take advantage of it.
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Thank you all for your responses (and encouragement :-D and objectivity!!!)

Am planning to wear the lateness, flag the way the situation was dealt with (minus the feeeelings) and quietly take that as my cue to start hunting for corporate AV work and get the hell out of this pub job.

At this point it is the end of the working day. Every time I called the boss was busy, the duty manager said she'd leave a note asking the boss to call me back but by the last time I called, she'd gone home. I did get to speak to the woman who does accounts, she said she'd look into it for me.

Worst case scenario the boss refuses to talk to me at all, what's the best course of action in this event? I am apprehensive about working my next shift there on Friday, for the sake of my reputation and the bands I feel I shouldn't bail on it but withholding my services is all the bargaining power I have (aka a strike). Maybe, work the shift and hand in a proper letter of resignation with due notice?
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Thank you all for your responses (and encouragement :-D and objectivity!!!)

Am planning to wear the lateness, flag the way the situation was dealt with (minus the feeeelings) and quietly take that as my cue to start hunting for corporate AV work and get the hell out of this pub job.

At this point it is the end of the working day. Every time I called the boss was busy, the duty manager said she'd leave a note asking the boss to call me back but by the last time I called, she'd gone home. I did get to speak to the woman who does accounts, she said she'd look into it for me.

Worst case scenario the boss refuses to talk to me at all, what's the best course of action in this event? I am apprehensive about working my next shift there on Friday, for the sake of my reputation and the bands I feel I shouldn't bail on it but withholding my services is all the bargaining power I have (aka a strike). Maybe, work the shift and hand in a proper letter of resignation with due notice?

All well thought out answers. As mentioned in some of the above posts, I would not burn any bridges. You really won't know what is going on until you speak with the boss. As far as bargaining power I would say now is not the best time to ask for anything considering they are upset with you. If you do decide to leave this or any job, a proper letter of resignation and due notice is a given. Remember "You are always a professional engineer" and integrity is a part of that.
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Thank you all for your responses (and encouragement :-D and objectivity!!!)

Am planning to wear the lateness, flag the way the situation was dealt with (minus the feeeelings) and quietly take that as my cue to start hunting for corporate AV work and get the hell out of this pub job.

At this point it is the end of the working day. Every time I called the boss was busy, the duty manager said she'd leave a note asking the boss to call me back but by the last time I called, she'd gone home. I did get to speak to the woman who does accounts, she said she'd look into it for me.

Worst case scenario the boss refuses to talk to me at all, what's the best course of action in this event? I am apprehensive about working my next shift there on Friday, for the sake of my reputation and the bands I feel I shouldn't bail on it but withholding my services is all the bargaining power I have (aka a strike). Maybe, work the shift and hand in a proper letter of resignation with due notice?

If you decide to leave, give whatever notice is customary. If they tell you to not come back, you're given notice. The other thing I would do is IMMEDIATELY (like today) remove any personal property from the premises. Make sure you can prove it's yours (receipts & invoices, you name or ID# engraved on the gear, etc) because if this situation is as toxic as it potentially could be, they might call the police and claim you're a thief.
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

It's only $40, so don't worry about getting any of it.
And, it only cost you $40, (or maybe $20 if you wanted half of it) to find out just where you sit with these two.

To Tim's list I would add compulsive.

I sometimes give my customers a range of price to pay me. Some will always choose the least amount, every time.
Others will go inside the spectrum depending on how they did that night, and very few will go with or near the maximum every time.
It can be instructive.

Regards, Jack
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

+1 on the whole professionalism spiel.

That being said, you need to get out of there. I recall seeing another thread by you a little while back regarding the nonsense of that venue and the owners. I used to work an employer that didn't exactly provide the most healthy work environment (I'm really holding back here.) It was very hard for me to leave, particularly because I cut my teeth at that venue and had put so much into it. I would start cold-calling the hell out of everyone and put out feelers to all the people you know, telling them that you are actively looking for work. What ever you do, just get out of this workplace. You'll feel better.
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Finally got through to her.

Boss - We don't want to pay you if you don't physically set up the PA

Me (checking for clarification) - what about sound check does that have value to you

Boss - well yes, it's crucial

Me - so if I run late and don't set up does the sound check still happen, is it worth $40

Boss - it's up to you if you want the job

Damn right it's up to me, and hell no, I do not want this job any more. On top of that it's about to cut back from 2 nights to 1, getting my cold canvass on (and luckily not dependent on that gig for income, it's just pocket money. But yes, the thought of leaving something so familiar makes me very sad. And my dad keeps saying I should ask her for a reference ...... I don't see how she could possibly give me a good one!!)
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

Like it or not she is your reference unless you pretend you didn't work there.

Did you just negotiate $40 pay for just the sound check? That sounds like a raise to me.

It will look better if you raise your price for "both" set up and sound check and she declines to pay that, than you were let go for not showing up on time.

If she is willing to pay more, it might still be worth doing.

Good luck... try to make lemonade from the sour lemons.

There will be life after that gig...

JR
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

After re-reading the post, it sounds like you are getting paid $40 to help set up the band and do sound check. After that, the band is on their own. If you were late and missed the setup part of the agreement, I could understand not paying you for a service not provided.

Another thing that is a concern is that if you've been doing this regularly for 6 years, you are definitely in Employee territory more than subcontractor territory. As a subcontractor, you could have sent someone else to show up and provide the service. If you're not allowed to do that, then you fall under the employee category. A whole different set of rules apply then.
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

After re-reading the post, it sounds like you are getting paid $40 to help set up the band and do sound check. After that, the band is on their own. If you were late and missed the setup part of the agreement, I could understand not paying you for a service not provided.

Another thing that is a concern is that if you've been doing this regularly for 6 years, you are definitely in Employee territory more than subcontractor territory. As a subcontractor, you could have sent someone else to show up and provide the service. If you're not allowed to do that, then you fall under the employee category. A whole different set of rules apply then.

She's not here in the states. What you say is certainly true here, but i don't know what the laws are in Australia.
 
Re: Employer fair play or foul?

She's not here in the states. What you say is certainly true here, but i don't know what the laws are in Australia.
I believe the Employee versus Independent Contractor issues and delineation are very similar. The tread title references "Employer" and whether it is an employer/employee or client/contractor relationship could be relevant as could any related contracts or agreements.

If it is an Independent Contractor relationship then the issue being not providing the agreed upon service versus being late may be a crucial difference and depending on what any related Contract or other agreement states they may well be right to not pay for services not rendered. However, it sounds like the situation is such that neither side is happy with the current arrangement.