Gaddafi Found!
- Thread starter Douglas R. Allen
- Start date
Re: Gaddafi Found!
OK, you got me. Being from MN, this was my favorite line:
"..........others gave him high marks for his grasp of history and geography, which most agreed was stronger than Michele Bachmann’s."
OK, you got me. Being from MN, this was my favorite line:
"..........others gave him high marks for his grasp of history and geography, which most agreed was stronger than Michele Bachmann’s."
Re: Gaddafi Found!
Satire is humor with a point, that can inform those willing to try to understand.
Thinly veiled partisan attacks shared among like minded people can seem like innocent humor, but only to other like minded people.
To respond in kind one could cite public misstatements (like how many states we have), made by high political officeholders but that isn't constructive (IMO).
It's much more pleasant to play nice. I am always willing to engage in thoughtful exchanges of ideas. The airwaves will get nasty enough after vacation is over and for the next year+.
JR
edit- I'd respond to the thread over on the LAB but they don't let me talk politics over there... :-( /edit
PS: For any paying attention to Libya (the thread topic) whats next? Recall from geography class that's where the original (barbary coast) pirates were based..
Satire is humor with a point, that can inform those willing to try to understand.
Thinly veiled partisan attacks shared among like minded people can seem like innocent humor, but only to other like minded people.
To respond in kind one could cite public misstatements (like how many states we have), made by high political officeholders but that isn't constructive (IMO).
It's much more pleasant to play nice. I am always willing to engage in thoughtful exchanges of ideas. The airwaves will get nasty enough after vacation is over and for the next year+.
JR
edit- I'd respond to the thread over on the LAB but they don't let me talk politics over there... :-( /edit
PS: For any paying attention to Libya (the thread topic) whats next? Recall from geography class that's where the original (barbary coast) pirates were based..
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Re: Gaddafi Found!
at least they let YOU talk over there...
for the record, when they ban someone over there that person isn't even able to view anything at all.. not even to see what they might have done wrong or the aftermath of their actions.. (I was surprised at this, as I thought (when I was an accepted user there) that those who were "banned" were just banned from posting.
fortunately, I spend about 50% of my time these days in hotels in various cities so their IP ban doesn't prevent me from reading... (though I don't miss it that much. it aint what it used to be)
Jason
at least they let YOU talk over there...
for the record, when they ban someone over there that person isn't even able to view anything at all.. not even to see what they might have done wrong or the aftermath of their actions.. (I was surprised at this, as I thought (when I was an accepted user there) that those who were "banned" were just banned from posting.
fortunately, I spend about 50% of my time these days in hotels in various cities so their IP ban doesn't prevent me from reading... (though I don't miss it that much. it aint what it used to be)
Jason
Re: Gaddafi Found!
They deleted several of my posts... the party's over...
but this too is life.. we can never go home..
JR
I think you summed it up nicely.
They deleted several of my posts... the party's over...
but this too is life.. we can never go home..
JR
Re: Gaddafi Found!
His virgin female, heel and designer sunglasses wearing bodyguards weren't there??
His virgin female, heel and designer sunglasses wearing bodyguards weren't there??
Re: Gaddafi Found!
Gadaffi is one twisted cat...
It will be interesting to see what comes of Libya if this is his end days.
As Powell so clearly stated, if you break it you own it, so nato(?) will have responsibility seeing that this ends up better than it was. Hard to imagine it not being better, but it takes a lot of work (time and money) to stand up robust self rule. The power vacuum will draw in many bad actors from the region ready to offer their "solution".
Libya has the benefit of an oil revenue stream, and more than little of Gaddafi's cash stash, but this is far from a cake walk after 40 years of dictatorship. There are other fledgling nations in the region with oil revenue that are far from under control.
Hopefully they can get that light sweet erl pumping again which will be good for the whole world economy. It could take months or more to get back to the volume they were pumping before. High oil prices are a tax on everybody**..
JR
** for some more good news on that front, the administration has finally started signing oil leases again, but there is a significant time lag between leases and production. On the down side the administration is challenging Exxon about their lease on a 1 billion barrel(?) discovery. More drilling and more (cheaper) oil would help employment, this lease restart is little and late to help employment huge by next Nov, but a move in the right direction and more drilling will have an impact sooner on employment in the gulf region, while pretty much canceling the negative impact of shutting it all down after the macondo blow out last year. Psychologically this promise of more future oil should have a damping effect on future expectations of oil supply shortages that dominates futures prices and what we actually pay for oil now.
Gadaffi is one twisted cat...
It will be interesting to see what comes of Libya if this is his end days.
As Powell so clearly stated, if you break it you own it, so nato(?) will have responsibility seeing that this ends up better than it was. Hard to imagine it not being better, but it takes a lot of work (time and money) to stand up robust self rule. The power vacuum will draw in many bad actors from the region ready to offer their "solution".
Libya has the benefit of an oil revenue stream, and more than little of Gaddafi's cash stash, but this is far from a cake walk after 40 years of dictatorship. There are other fledgling nations in the region with oil revenue that are far from under control.
Hopefully they can get that light sweet erl pumping again which will be good for the whole world economy. It could take months or more to get back to the volume they were pumping before. High oil prices are a tax on everybody**..
JR
** for some more good news on that front, the administration has finally started signing oil leases again, but there is a significant time lag between leases and production. On the down side the administration is challenging Exxon about their lease on a 1 billion barrel(?) discovery. More drilling and more (cheaper) oil would help employment, this lease restart is little and late to help employment huge by next Nov, but a move in the right direction and more drilling will have an impact sooner on employment in the gulf region, while pretty much canceling the negative impact of shutting it all down after the macondo blow out last year. Psychologically this promise of more future oil should have a damping effect on future expectations of oil supply shortages that dominates futures prices and what we actually pay for oil now.
Re: Gaddafi Found!
When the whole thing started I tried to make a joke relating to the First Barbary War and how it was a good thing the USS Philadelphia had been decomissioned just in time....
Aparently i'm to much of a history buff, as it went right over my friends heads. =/
When the whole thing started I tried to make a joke relating to the First Barbary War and how it was a good thing the USS Philadelphia had been decomissioned just in time....
Aparently i'm to much of a history buff, as it went right over my friends heads. =/
Re: Gaddafi Found!
Those who don't study history are doomed to......... be dumb asses and not get your jokes, among other things.
I'm sure all the marines around here know what 'to the shores of Tripoli" was all about in their battle hymn. or not.
JR
Those who don't study history are doomed to......... be dumb asses and not get your jokes, among other things.
I'm sure all the marines around here know what 'to the shores of Tripoli" was all about in their battle hymn. or not.
JR
Re: Gaddafi Found!
I recently read an interesting and surprising report about Libya before the NATO bombings depicting the country as surprisingly modern with well funded-programs for things like health, education and small business startup. As usual, there is more than one side to a story.
I'm anxious to see what becomes of all this, also. Oil money to get the new government started looks good at face value, but how well is that going in Irak, currently?
I recently read an interesting and surprising report about Libya before the NATO bombings depicting the country as surprisingly modern with well funded-programs for things like health, education and small business startup. As usual, there is more than one side to a story.
I'm anxious to see what becomes of all this, also. Oil money to get the new government started looks good at face value, but how well is that going in Irak, currently?
Re: Gaddafi Found!
I don't have much information about Libya other than what I've read in the news over the years... Google for the HIV trial or "Bulgarian nurses affair" . Back in 1999 European medical workers were accused of infecting children with HIV and sentenced to death... They were released after negotiations with the west and the sense of what happened was that the infection was spread by substandard hygiene in the hospital.. So that health program may be well funded, but i wouldn't go there for medical care on a bet.
I don't, have any similar anecdotes about small business startups but wouldn't go there to start a business either under Gaddafi.. maybe now there will be opportunities if they get rule of law with property rights (without ownership, business is not real entrepreneurism.), regarding education I don't think teaching english language has been allowed there for the last 20 years, while I'm sure you can be well educated without speaking english.. You just cant post here very easily.
I am not making any predictions that their oil revenue will be adequate for all their needs or will be spent wisely, but it's their money whoever they are. They do at least have that advantage over resource poor nations like Afghanistan. I suspect italy would love to help, but is in the middle of an austerity budget push... I'm sure they will figure something out... Libya doesn't have a professional military like Egypt did to stand up and maintain order, so i expect calls for NATO police forces, etc.
Nobody is going to cry or lose sleep over Gaddafi, despite any good press reports you found. There will be one less crazy leader in power. Taking him down was the easy part and that took them 6 months ( if finished). I wish nothing but the best for the Libyan people, but what replaces Gaddafi is still unknown.
JR
PS: Iraq is doing Ok if you ignore the recent bombings. I haven't been looking at their oil export numbers but they have finally signed deals with real oil companies to develop their fields and I expect output is slowly ramping up. The still fledgeling government is currently wrestling with the politically sensitive issue of wether to ask us to leave soon when the current agreement expires, or ask us to stay longer. Privately the government surely wants us to stay to help maintain security, but publicly our presence there is very unpopular with the street. This will be an interesting test for that young government. I worry that Iran is chomping at the bit to exert more influence there.
While not getting much press in the news, the Kurds in the north of iraq are still at odds with turkey and I think there were reports within the last few weeks of Turkish shelling into northern iraq going after kurdish insurgents but killing innocent civilians. This all sounds way to familiar across other borders in the area.. Real peace in that region will take time, but they have a good start... more hard work ahead.
But I remain an optimist. (don't ask me about Afghanistan).
I don't have much information about Libya other than what I've read in the news over the years... Google for the HIV trial or "Bulgarian nurses affair" . Back in 1999 European medical workers were accused of infecting children with HIV and sentenced to death... They were released after negotiations with the west and the sense of what happened was that the infection was spread by substandard hygiene in the hospital.. So that health program may be well funded, but i wouldn't go there for medical care on a bet.
I don't, have any similar anecdotes about small business startups but wouldn't go there to start a business either under Gaddafi.. maybe now there will be opportunities if they get rule of law with property rights (without ownership, business is not real entrepreneurism.), regarding education I don't think teaching english language has been allowed there for the last 20 years, while I'm sure you can be well educated without speaking english.. You just cant post here very easily.
I am not making any predictions that their oil revenue will be adequate for all their needs or will be spent wisely, but it's their money whoever they are. They do at least have that advantage over resource poor nations like Afghanistan. I suspect italy would love to help, but is in the middle of an austerity budget push... I'm sure they will figure something out... Libya doesn't have a professional military like Egypt did to stand up and maintain order, so i expect calls for NATO police forces, etc.
Nobody is going to cry or lose sleep over Gaddafi, despite any good press reports you found. There will be one less crazy leader in power. Taking him down was the easy part and that took them 6 months ( if finished). I wish nothing but the best for the Libyan people, but what replaces Gaddafi is still unknown.
JR
PS: Iraq is doing Ok if you ignore the recent bombings. I haven't been looking at their oil export numbers but they have finally signed deals with real oil companies to develop their fields and I expect output is slowly ramping up. The still fledgeling government is currently wrestling with the politically sensitive issue of wether to ask us to leave soon when the current agreement expires, or ask us to stay longer. Privately the government surely wants us to stay to help maintain security, but publicly our presence there is very unpopular with the street. This will be an interesting test for that young government. I worry that Iran is chomping at the bit to exert more influence there.
While not getting much press in the news, the Kurds in the north of iraq are still at odds with turkey and I think there were reports within the last few weeks of Turkish shelling into northern iraq going after kurdish insurgents but killing innocent civilians. This all sounds way to familiar across other borders in the area.. Real peace in that region will take time, but they have a good start... more hard work ahead.
But I remain an optimist. (don't ask me about Afghanistan).
Re: Gaddafi Found!
Actually, Political in-fighting, Tribalism, Sect crusaders, and Religious supremists warring with their neighbors... have been way too familiar in Africa, the Middle East and the Arabian peninsula for thousands of years...what makes anyone think this will change now?
Unfortunately, as historical scholars will reluctantly admit, the only time many of these lands have had internal peace, is when they were ruled by dictators. Of course this "peace" does not include the brutal methods used by these dictators on their peoples.
Hammer
Actually, Political in-fighting, Tribalism, Sect crusaders, and Religious supremists warring with their neighbors... have been way too familiar in Africa, the Middle East and the Arabian peninsula for thousands of years...what makes anyone think this will change now?
Unfortunately, as historical scholars will reluctantly admit, the only time many of these lands have had internal peace, is when they were ruled by dictators. Of course this "peace" does not include the brutal methods used by these dictators on their peoples.
Hammer
Re: Gaddafi Found!
Giving you that observation, does that suggest to anyone that freedom and personal choice are not worth pursuing?
India (on a different continent) is the most populous democracy in the world and they routinely suffer terrorist attacks from internal and external enemies. I wouldn't say they are blase about it nor do they find it acceptable, but nobody would consider giving up their freedoms for a little more security.
The Kurdish/Turk tension is clearly a classic case of western map lines being used to define nations, ignoring cultural roots that run deeper. I just mentioned as a data point about the uneven progress in Iraq getting their early act in order.
My optimism extends to feeling that democracy is worth pursuing, I am not so naive to think it will just happen. The natural order in a power vacuum is for the next alpha dog to just take control, and if that alpha is another mad dog, we get another one of them.
Simply holding elections after 40 years of totalitarian rule will not magically stand up an effective government, while many dictators pretend to have elections so people could remember what they look like.
People have stopped watching Egypt after the images were no longer worthy of our too short attention span, but now is the interesting part where the Brotherhood is building and consolidating political power. There will be some interesting elections in that region in the next several months and while I can't feel great about possible outcomes, I feel better that they are at least voting on their own futures.
Looking back at our own history, it took us years to get our act together in the early days, but we didn't have bad actors in our midst, while I guess this is subjective and biased by my world view of who are the good guys, and what is best for them.
JR
Giving you that observation, does that suggest to anyone that freedom and personal choice are not worth pursuing?
India (on a different continent) is the most populous democracy in the world and they routinely suffer terrorist attacks from internal and external enemies. I wouldn't say they are blase about it nor do they find it acceptable, but nobody would consider giving up their freedoms for a little more security.
The Kurdish/Turk tension is clearly a classic case of western map lines being used to define nations, ignoring cultural roots that run deeper. I just mentioned as a data point about the uneven progress in Iraq getting their early act in order.
My optimism extends to feeling that democracy is worth pursuing, I am not so naive to think it will just happen. The natural order in a power vacuum is for the next alpha dog to just take control, and if that alpha is another mad dog, we get another one of them.
Simply holding elections after 40 years of totalitarian rule will not magically stand up an effective government, while many dictators pretend to have elections so people could remember what they look like.
People have stopped watching Egypt after the images were no longer worthy of our too short attention span, but now is the interesting part where the Brotherhood is building and consolidating political power. There will be some interesting elections in that region in the next several months and while I can't feel great about possible outcomes, I feel better that they are at least voting on their own futures.
Looking back at our own history, it took us years to get our act together in the early days, but we didn't have bad actors in our midst, while I guess this is subjective and biased by my world view of who are the good guys, and what is best for them.
JR
Re: Gaddafi Found!
worth purs
Hello JR.
I was just pointing out the facts. And yes, no matter what the struggle, or who the enemy, freedom, and freedom of personal choice is worth persuing.
Although, I disagree that in order to have security a citizen must give up their freedoms. The biggest part of "security" is freedom.
I am hopeful that people throughout the World could put away their Religious and Tribal differences and learn to police their own behaviors, that they realize that there will always be Religious and Cultural leaders spouting distain for those that don't follow their philosophy, but... I'm not so optimistic, because with this separation, exists power to these same leaders.
Voting does not necessarily ensure a better future, nor, that their vote will account for anyone or anything.
Hammer
ps. I wish things were as simple as some may believe.
worth purs
Hello JR.
I was just pointing out the facts. And yes, no matter what the struggle, or who the enemy, freedom, and freedom of personal choice is worth persuing.
Although, I disagree that in order to have security a citizen must give up their freedoms. The biggest part of "security" is freedom.
I am hopeful that people throughout the World could put away their Religious and Tribal differences and learn to police their own behaviors, that they realize that there will always be Religious and Cultural leaders spouting distain for those that don't follow their philosophy, but... I'm not so optimistic, because with this separation, exists power to these same leaders.
Voting does not necessarily ensure a better future, nor, that their vote will account for anyone or anything.
Hammer
ps. I wish things were as simple as some may believe.
Re: Gaddafi Found!
"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither" (B. Franklin).
Wouldn't it be nice if world peace was simple and people weren't so simple....
We need to round up all these "some people" and put them in camps... That sounds pretty simple.
JR
You may have to search a little to find someone who disagrees with you here...
"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither" (B. Franklin).
Wouldn't it be nice if world peace was simple and people weren't so simple....
We need to round up all these "some people" and put them in camps... That sounds pretty simple.
JR