Gibson raided

Re: Gibson raided

That Fox news report, is extremely biased against anti-government, Granted they took a quote from Gibson about the seizure, they are clearly twisting it to make it a political argument rather than an environmental argument. Granted the law probably needs a read over but the reason its illegal is because of people buying the wood over sea's and shipping it here isn't controlled well enough to make it plausible to help the species.

I'm sure both articles are very political but if you read the facts and not the opinions of the two companies the true details come out, Feds seized ebony and rosewood because it was imported illegally. end of story.
 
Re: Gibson raided

More to the point, in the NPR story the Justice Dept or Customs officer indicated they have emails from Gibson officials that discussed ways of circumventing the Lacey Act. That little bit of info is missing from all the other reports I've come across.

I was very ready to come to Gibson's defense (and I think the method the Feds used was excessive to the point of absurdity) but if this is true then I have little sympathy.
 
Re: Gibson raided

Tim,

From what I understand, the way that the Lacey Act was amended was to put the onus on US companies to abide by the countries' own laws from which they import.

In this case, the law that was being "violated" was that whatever wood product was being imported from India must be a "completely finished product" i.e. finished by Indian laborers rather than raw material.

They may be in violation of the law - I don't know. But if this is the reason, it's hogwash IMO.
 
Re: Gibson raided

Actually there have been a couple articles in the WSJ in recent weeks and this is not the first time Gibson was raided over exotic wood. IIRC they were raided a few years ago.

I suspect the politically charged spin that the regulators are trying to chase jobs out of the US is just legal posturing from Henry's lawyers, even if that may be the unintended consequence of heavy handed regulation, it is just a strategy, and Fox is happy to play along, since it is their kind of "news" story.

It appears that Gibson has been caught with restricted wood, despite having legal(?) paperwork. A letter of the law vs. intent of the law distinction. The regulators should be following the letter of the law, despite their already broad interpretation of the 1900 Lacey Act, and Gibson should not use banned wood, no matter how clever they are about sourcing it from gray market trans-shippers.

When in doubt do what's right....

JR

PS: Yes, more or less political seems to be in the mind of the beholder. Group think makes some pretty partisan statements seem innocent depending on what you normally hear or read. Back in the '70s i read three daily newspapers (WSJ, NYT, and Wash Post). That was an eye opener for how the news gets selectively presented, and it is much worse now (IMO) than back then. Like I said we must strive to see both sides of arguments and focus on facts, not ad hominum imagined intentions of individuals or organizations that can't possibly be accurately known.
 
Re: Gibson raided

Ryan Lantzy said:
Tim,

From what I understand, the way that the Lacey Act was amended was to put the onus on US companies to abide by the countries' own laws from which they import.

In this case, the law that was being "violated" was that whatever wood product was being imported from India must be a "completely finished product" i.e. finished by Indian laborers rather than raw material.

They may be in violation of the law - I don't know. But if this is the reason, it's hogwash IMO.
Click to expand...

Yup, I'd heard that angle, but couldn't find any reference to it when I googled for it yesterday.

So this is consistent with Henry having to set up an operation in India to use that wood (finished to his build standards), but is this wood originally from india, or trans-shipped in from somewhere else (like Sumatra?). Sounds like perhaps multiple issues, and if the wood isn't coming from India, there is no reason to set up shop there, while perhaps reason to set up shop anywhere but here.

However like i said in a different thread about this subject in another forum, if the wood is illegal, it will still be illegal after more labor has been added to it.

I am still waiting for the rest of the story but apparently this has been playing out over a few years. Ignore the lawyer waving his arms in the air.

JR
 
Re: Gibson raided

If it's in the OP is a swerve? While it's seemed more like a (cheap shot) rhetorical device, not really expecting an answer, but i can't honestly know what he was thinking so who knows?

The admin has been quietly enforcing some immigration rules while very publicly trying to appeal to this huge block of potential future voters.

Some recent (June) internal ICE memos have stirred up accusations of back-dooring the dream act that doesn't have enough support in congress to get a vote, but it is more complicated than that, involving prosecutorial digression, since as usual congress passed the laws on immigration but not the budget to enforce all of the laws, so this memo formalizes who gets a pass, due to this not enough resources, triage.

JR
 
Re: Gibson raided

Ryan Lantzy said:
In this case, the law that was being "violated" was that whatever wood product was being imported from India must be a "completely finished product" i.e. finished by Indian laborers rather than raw material.
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So... is it suppose to work the other way? Like Alaskan yellow cedar saw logs... those have to be finished by US citizens into dimensional lumber before the logs are loaded onto Japanese mill ships in the Gulf of Alaska... or barged across the pond and sunk and stored as whole logs in some Jap harbor? Just curious.

How about wheat? Do we only ship noodles made from processed soft white wheat and packaged in convenient serving sized plastic bags to the corners of the earth? How about lentils... are we only shipping lentil soup in those 80lb. sacks?

Just curious...
 
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Re: Gibson raided

W. Mark Hellinger said:
So... is it suppose to work the other way? Like Alaskan yellow cedar saw logs... those have to be finished by US citizens into dimensional lumber before the logs are loaded onto Japanese mill ships in the Gulf of Alaska... or barged across the pond and sunk and stored as whole logs in some Jap harbor? Just curious.

How about wheat? Do we only ship noodles made from processed soft white wheat and packaged in convenient serving sized plastic bags to the corners of the earth? How about lentils... are we only shipping lentil soup in those 80lb. sacks?

Just curious...
Click to expand...

That's an Indian law to protect Indian workers not US law, but somebody is raising that as justification.

Free trade agreements between nations are to equalize such transaction between countries. We still have approved free trade deals with several nations waiting on congress to approve since the last administration (South Korea, Columbia, etc... ).

India Has been trying to finalize a free trade deal with the EU for a while, but there were protests (in India) as recently as last month.

According to Indian opposition to FTA

"They do not have much knowledge and skill about business, so if the FTA is signed then many skilled and rich European businessmen will come and consequently the indigenous people will lose all their rights. " hmmm

India has been in discussions with Canada and I seem to recall President Obama or a high administration official leading a delegation of US business leaders to India to promote a FTA with them within the last year or so..

It seems that not everybody supports free trade.

JR
 
Re: Gibson raided

Jack Arnott said:
Thats a whole nuther debate. Since you are the OP, I will go there if you want.
Huge topic swerve though, and its your thread.

Regards, Jack
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Jack,
you're free to go where ever you want! I meant what I said.Go after 12 million people who illegaly came into our country, or 1 company importing ( supposedly) illegal wood.If it's finished in India by an underpaid Indian worker,you can import it.If it's raw wood and finished by an American worker,it's illegal.Is this a great country or what?
 
Re: Gibson raided

John Roberts said:
It seems that not everybody supports free trade.

JR
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so... approx. 0.4 miles to the north of my chair, bags of raw unprocessed lentils are being loaded into containers and shipped to the corners of the earth (India included... I'm of the understanding)... yet... shipping some-odd pallet loads of wood from India (possibly imported to India from Indonesian) to Montana (a hundred or some miles away from me) is somehow all wrong?

Humm...

The gross retail sales in the US in 2010 was something like $4T... the disclosed US budget (not including state, county, and city budgets… or federal budgets that are classified) in 2010 was on the order of $3T… and about 1 in 10 US residents between the age of 18 and 65 are issued a $10K/yr allowance credit card… and I’m having a hard time hiring good full time employees because I can’t compete with unemployment payments.

Frankly, I don't see this... any of this as a scalable business model… and there’s some on-going high level discussions about what to do to fix our economy involving incentives? Like what (pray tell)? I’m just a dumb farmer who somehow ended up soldering cables for a living.... and waiting for even more-so completely dysfunctional organic, bio-degradable solder to be mandated... for those items produced in the US... nevermind the fact that I suspect they're still spraying tomatoes imported from Mexico with DDT.

I have absolutely no intentions of being political with my ravings... I'm just a business man with employees and a family to feed... and I'm trying to get my head around how all this is suppose to function on a daily basis when it seems like probably 100%+ of gross income is needed to feed the govt... and somehow we're suppose to create jobs to get this economy out of the doldrums? And the solution to all our problems is "confidence"...

hokey... I guess I need to get confident.

right

lemme get on that... soon as I get done doing taxes again and somehow trying to fit another 120hr. workweek in that isn't quite long enough to get it all done... for 20 some-odd years... and writing another check... I'll get right on that confidence thing.

Would a smile help? :)
 
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Re: Gibson raided

W. Mark Hellinger said:
so... approx. 0.4 miles to the north of my chair, bags of raw unprocessed lentils are being loaded into containers and shipped to the corners of the earth (India included... I'm of the understanding)... yet... shipping some-odd pallet loads of wood from India (possibly imported to India from Indonesian) to Montana (a hundred or some miles away from me) is somehow all wrong?


Mark, there are three different issues regarding India, Gibson and the shipping of food products.

India: has very strict import laws. There are a few exceptions including Medical, some Computer Equipment & Software, but, generally, if you want to sell products into India, they demand a factory be built in India, staffed by Natives. (free trade....my ass)

Gibson: India is trying to up the ante for what they consider lost jobs/materials.... they want to put their people to work and add value to the cost of their resource products....by having Indians shape, carve and finish the wood. India may have been a co-conspiritor in getting questionable, possibly endangered wood into the US by altering the provenance of the wood.

I'm all for building guitars for those that want them, business is business, but... banning specific products for import/export is nothing new. Many Countries, for decades have specified banned import/export products. Natural resources DO NEED to be monitored for possible extinction, waste or poor harvesting techniques. (the dust bowl is America's proof) Many Countries have lax laws regarding harvesting of natural resources, very little monitoring and a huge illegal business that is short-sighted. Many African, South American and Oriental Countries have devastated millions of Acres of Forests, and the animals that existed there by harvesting the resources, or planting alien plant species.

Food Products: Many Countries limit (even to ridiculously small amounts) specific raw/processed food products for import even though there is demand for these low cost food products. The State of Louisiana grows more rice than the whole Country of Japan. It's cheaper for them to buy our rice,(or any food product) but again, they allow only small amounts to be imported. India has similar laws regarding squash, rice, beans, and other legumes.


Frankly, I don't see this... any of this as a scalable business model… and there’s some on-going high level discussions about what to do to fix our economy involving incentives?
Click to expand...

Incentives won't work, and nothing will "get better" until we abandon "Fair Trade", and start demanding that the Large American Corporations start paying Tax. (Yes, that statement is unpopular, especially with specific Political Groups, CEOs, and Lobbyists ..or those that mean to aspire to be a Lobbyist.

Hammer
 
Re: Gibson raided

If one were to pick the most likely of all the U.S. high-end guitar manufacturers which use exotic woods (Martin, Taylor, PRS, FMIC, and Gibson) to be charged with not doing business ethically, it would certainly come as no surprise that it's against the Henry Juszkiewicz led Gibson, which placed at the absolute bottom last year of an employee-surveyed worst places to work poll.

All the Fox news hysterical BS aside: If I were, say, Taylor - a very well run American company with a great reputation - and I was playing by the rules, but my competitor was cheating, I'd want their ass nailed.
 
Re: Gibson raided

Charlie Zureki said:
Incentives won't work, and nothing will "get better" until we abandon "Fair Trade", and start demanding that the Large American Corporations start paying Tax. (Yes, that statement is unpopular, especially with specific Political Groups, CEOs, and Lobbyists ..or those that mean to aspire to be a Lobbyist.

Hammer
Click to expand...

It's unpopular with me... because it's vague and demonizing business without offering facts or a solution.

I am in favor of closing tax loop holes that many big corporations have engineered for themselves over the years through lobbyists and crony capitalism with those in office, so we can then lower tax rates for everybody else and still collect more taxes overall. There is no reason to raise Mark's taxes because GM or GE doesn't pay the nominal rate. There are proposals to this end being made by some. Lower the tax rate but make everybody pay that same rate... the government gets more and Mark pays less..
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Why are you against fair trade?. I buy fair trade coffee and as far as I can tell it helps the small coffee growers in south and central america get a better price for their crops. You are in good company though. The Adam Smith institute is opposed to fair trade too, but I don't think it's effective enough to cause the issues that the Adam Smith types fear (over production).

Do you mean you're against free trade? I'm not against free trade either. I don't like playing with a stacked deck or loaded dice. I prefer a level playing field so everybody can compete on the same basis with the same rules.

I am not even slightly curious about which group you lump me in with for daring to not agree with you.

BTW I don't think becoming a lobbyist has much to do with espousing one belief system or the other. It's more being willing to promote somebody else's agenda for a fee, and then only after you have access the the people with their hands on the levers of power. Not exactly prostitution because only the taxpayers get f*sked, without even the dinner or movie.

Note: While lobbying is a form of protected speech, that doesn't mean the legislators have to be so accommodating. They need to represent the people in their district, not their golf foursome.

JR
 
Re: Gibson raided

Well since this has gone the economic route. What ever happened to the "equal" taxes. What reason is there for a tiered system?

Personally I feel that a flat percentage rate should be the way to go. I'm sorry if I feel that if you make more you should pay more. sorry but the only people benefiting from this current tax system is the already overly wealthy. Since when did a 2 person family need 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths?
 
Re: Gibson raided

John Roberts said:
It's unpopular with me... because it's vague and demonizing business without offering facts or a solution.

I am in favor of closing tax loop holes that many big corporations have engineered for themselves over the years through lobbyists and crony capitalism with those in office, so we can then lower tax rates for everybody else and still collect more taxes overall. There is no reason to raise Mark's taxes because GM or GE doesn't pay the nominal rate. There are proposals to this end being made by some. Lower the tax rate but make everybody pay that same rate... the government gets more and Mark pays less..
------
Why are you against fair trade?. I buy fair trade coffee and as far as I can tell it helps the small coffee growers in south and central america get a better price for their crops. You are in good company though. The Adam Smith institute is opposed to fair trade too, but I don't think it's effective enough to cause the issues that the Adam Smith types fear (over production).

Do you mean you're against free trade? I'm not against free trade either. I don't like playing with a stacked deck or loaded dice. I prefer a level playing field so everybody can compete on the same basis with the same rules.

I am not even slightly curious about which group you lump me in with for daring to not agree with you.

BTW I don't think becoming a lobbyist has much to do with espousing one belief system or the other. It's more being willing to promote somebody else's agenda for a fee, and then only after you have access the the people with their hands on the levers of power. Not exactly prostitution because only the taxpayers get f*sked, without even the dinner or movie.

Note: While lobbying is a form of protected speech, that doesn't mean the legislators have to be so accommodating. They need to represent the people in their district, not their golf foursome.

JR
Click to expand...

Hello,

I miss typed... I meant Free Trade not "Fair Trade". And, I'm against "Free Trade" because there is NO such thing, it comes with exclusions, exemptions, and quotas. How is it "Free Trade" when American Companies, Canadian Companies, British Companies, etc... have to build Manufacturing plants in India in order to sell products to the Country? How is it "Free Trade" when the Japanese have severe limits on the amount of American, Canadian, or Argentinian, Beef allowed to be imported? What about Rice? Or Soybeans? They love Soy products.

Or what about China's limits on Sheep/Lamb from Canada, the US, or even Australia? I could go on and on...but...?

I wasn't lumping you in...I should have been more specific...I meant of Large Corporations, not the small Corporations that DO pay their fair share and then some.

Cheers,
Hammer
 
Re: Gibson raided

Jordan Lahr said:
Well since this has gone the economic route. What ever happened to the "equal" taxes. What reason is there for a tiered system?

Personally I feel that a flat percentage rate should be the way to go. I'm sorry if I feel that if you make more you should pay more. sorry but the only people benefiting from this current tax system is the already overly wealthy. Since when did a 2 person family need 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths?
Click to expand...

And Jordan, who decides how big a house you or I should have? Or how much food we can eat? Or if I want to buy a high performance car or an economy one?

The current system is progressive Jordan. Meaning those in higher income brackets pay a higher percentage on every dollar earned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Year_2011_income_brackets_and_tax_rates


The Top 1% of earners pay nearly 40% of the taxes in this country.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Distribution
 
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