Help with purchase decision

B

BJ James

Junior
Jan 11, 2011
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Happy New Year everyone,
2013 was full of challenges and unpredictability for my small shop. So far 2014 is shaping up to be a bit more consistant, though it is only Jan 2.)

Through the last several months I have managed to streamline our rental inventory to mainly powered boxes. I have several Yamaha DSR12 that see regular use in a lot of different applications. I also have several of the QSC KW18 sub. I will probably continue buying more of these as I need them as they are compact and pack a decent punch for their size. I also have a couple of the KW153 3 way powered box. I like this box for several reasons. It's pretty loud, somewhat compact, and pole mountable. I've heard people say they would never pole mount these, but I have and found them to be stable when using the KW18 pole over a single sub. I also have Global ST13 stands which are plenty strong to support these.
We also have several small systems of passive boxes and powered mixers that go out for dry rentals, but that gear is not relavent to this discussion.
So, you can see this puts me squarely in MI grade gear territory.

A few years back I bought a Versarray system. 12 boxes with lifts and 4x double 18" subs. Powered it with QSC PL3 amps. I really liked using this system. It sounded good and worked well for the type of gigs I bought it for. Long story less long- that system did not see enough use to warrant keeping it. So I recently sold it. Now I am in a position where I need a good sounding high SPL powered mid- hi box that will fill the Versarray void.
My most challenging job is an annual series of small concerts in a large old church. Length is about 120' from stage area including a 25' balconey and width of the space is about 60'. High cathedral ceiling with no hang points. Capacity is 650, usual attendance is around 400 though. This was a perfect space for the versarray as I could cover the balconey without issue. Occasionally I used some front fills where there was reduced coverage up front.
Music ranges from folk, country-folk, folk-rock. In the past we've provided in this space for Judy Collins to Serena Rider just to give an example. SPL requirements for these shows are not excessive, but dynamic headroom is important.
With what I already own I could cover most of the area with a pair of KW153 and jack a couple DSR12 way up to cover the balconey.
I was also thinking of purchasing either some QSC KLA, or Fulcrum FA212AC. I would probably need 3/side of the KLA but probably wouldn't need to use front fills (90*). Where I think the vertical coverage of the FA would be adequate, the 60* horizontal would require using front fills. Also KLA would require some way to hang as you can only go 2 up on a stick.

Basically looking for a bit of guidance from folks who have done similar shows on similar gear in a similar space. What can you recommend and why?
I do have a fast track to demo KLA and FA.

Looking forward to your input.
Thanks,
BJ
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

BJ James said:
Happy New Year everyone,
2013 was full of challenges and unpredictability for my small shop. So far 2014 is shaping up to be a bit more consistant, though it is only Jan 2.)

Through the last several months I have managed to streamline our rental inventory to mainly powered boxes. I have several Yamaha DSR12 that see regular use in a lot of different applications. I also have several of the QSC KW18 sub. I will probably continue buying more of these as I need them as they are compact and pack a decent punch for their size. I also have a couple of the KW153 3 way powered box. I like this box for several reasons. It's pretty loud, somewhat compact, and pole mountable. I've heard people say they would never pole mount these, but I have and found them to be stable when using the KW18 pole over a single sub. I also have Global ST13 stands which are plenty strong to support these.
We also have several small systems of passive boxes and powered mixers that go out for dry rentals, but that gear is not relavent to this discussion.
So, you can see this puts me squarely in MI grade gear territory.

A few years back I bought a Versarray system. 12 boxes with lifts and 4x double 18" subs. Powered it with QSC PL3 amps. I really liked using this system. It sounded good and worked well for the type of gigs I bought it for. Long story less long- that system did not see enough use to warrant keeping it. So I recently sold it. Now I am in a position where I need a good sounding high SPL powered mid- hi box that will fill the Versarray void.
My most challenging job is an annual series of small concerts in a large old church. Length is about 120' from stage area including a 25' balconey and width of the space is about 60'. High cathedral ceiling with no hang points. Capacity is 650, usual attendance is around 400 though. This was a perfect space for the versarray as I could cover the balconey without issue. Occasionally I used some front fills where there was reduced coverage up front.
Music ranges from folk, country-folk, folk-rock. In the past we've provided in this space for Judy Collins to Serena Rider just to give an example. SPL requirements for these shows are not excessive, but dynamic headroom is important.
With what I already own I could cover most of the area with a pair of KW153 and jack a couple DSR12 way up to cover the balconey.
I was also thinking of purchasing either some QSC KLA, or Fulcrum FA212AC. I would probably need 3/side of the KLA but probably wouldn't need to use front fills (90*). Where I think the vertical coverage of the FA would be adequate, the 60* horizontal would require using front fills. Also KLA would require some way to hang as you can only go 2 up on a stick.

Basically looking for a bit of guidance from folks who have done similar shows on similar gear in a similar space. What can you recommend and why?
I do have a fast track to demo KLA and FA.

Looking forward to your input.
Thanks,
BJ
Click to expand...

I think you are referring to the FA22ac, as the FA212 is a sub model.

I do not think that room would be a good candidate for any type of constant curvature vertical array. For the same money as 6 of the KLA boxes I would be looking at a good point source/center fill system.

In my mind the Fulcrum is roughly the same level (output) as the three way MI boxes, but a big step up in quality of the sound. For a lot of my type of acoustic shows having that clarity means I don't have to pummel the audience with level. Whether that is a good choice for you means you need to look at all your shows. I think that room is a little over the size I would be comfortable doing with a pair of SOS. A pair of SM80 may have that extra output, but I would probably want a front fill, more for even level than coverage.

I happen to think there is a place for really good SOS systems that are a good step above the MI offerings.

So the problem you are running into is that even some of the best SOS speakers don't work well as multiples. So I would be looking at some flavor of horn loaded traps. I think 2 per side of community SLS or Danley SH or SM would give you the coverage you need and still have lots of headroom in a ground stack configuration.
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

Jay Barracato said:
I think you are referring to the FA22ac, as the FA212 is a sub model.

I do not think that room would be a good candidate for any type of constant curvature vertical array. For the same money as 6 of the KLA boxes I would be looking at a good point source/center fill system.

In my mind the Fulcrum is roughly the same level (output) as the three way MI boxes, but a big step up in quality of the sound. For a lot of my type of acoustic shows having that clarity means I don't have to pummel the audience with level. Whether that is a good choice for you means you need to look at all your shows. I think that room is a little over the size I would be comfortable doing with a pair of SOS. A pair of SM80 may have that extra output, but I would probably want a front fill, more for even level than coverage.

I happen to think there is a place for really good SOS systems that are a good step above the MI offerings.

So the problem you are running into is that even some of the best SOS speakers don't work well as multiples. So I would be looking at some flavor of horn loaded traps. I think 2 per side of community SLS or Danley SH or SM would give you the coverage you need and still have lots of headroom in a ground stack configuration.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your insight Jay. You're right FA22AC is the box I was thinking of. I had considered the SM80 but was under the impression that the FA22 would outperform it. Plus I really prefer to go active though I do still have several PL3's left.
Mike: budget is < $10k

Anyone with FA's have some real life insight to share?
Also, to add to my original post. I had provided Unity U15 -one over one per side prior to the Versarray with satisfactory results. Of course center fill was needed.
Thanks.
BJ
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

As I posted in another thread, I mixed a show on a pair of FA22AC. They are amazing. I think you wrote that they are 60 degrees wide, but actually they are 90x45.
I would not hesitate to use them in a venue like you describe.

I mixed around 50 shows for Judy Collins in 2012 and 2013. One was on Fulcrum FA12s and one on Danley SH69's. Both were great. I have also mixed one Joan Baez show on Danley SH50's, and it too was fantastic.

I own 2 TS215, 4 FA12, and 2 FA28 which are used for a variety of shows locally when I'm home and is the monitor system for Joan when we tour in the USA.

When I was making my purchase, SM80's weren't out yet, and I felt that the FA box dimensions would offer more versatility than Danley. I can use them as mains, monitors, or fills. While Danley may be a little less expensive, I didn't have to buy as many FA boxes to meet my needs, which ultimately saved me money.
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

Awesome. That's all I need to hear to pull the trigger on a demo. Thanks Jason. Not sure why I had in my head they were 60*. I've been swimming in numbers.
BJ
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

I'll sort of echo Jason. I have a pair of FA12ac, and I couldn't be more pleased with them for the sound and construction quality, versatility and form factor. I'm planning on purchasing a pair of the TS215ac subs as soon as they become available and I can get a demo.
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

FWIW, I have been using the SM 80's in 400-600 capacity rooms with good results. A recent show with a loud rock band had plenty of output and clarity to the back of the hall(80' from stage).
 

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Re: Help with purchase decision

So, I got a FA22ac in to demo. Spent some time A-B ing against my other boxes and playing with Smaart yesterday. Will be keeping the demo unit and ordered it's twin this morning.
Congrats to Fulcrum for making one of the nicest boxes I've ever had the pleasure of listening to. Sure wish I could afford a bunch more to use as monitors.
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

Just a quick update to this thread. I used my new FA22ac's this weekend in the old church described earlier. The gig was not very demanding (5 inputs- Scottish folk music) but the performance was very dynamic and intimate in nature. These speakers are outstanding for this application. The band mentioned several times how great everything sounded, and I got several compliments on the sound on walkout from audience members.
Coverage to the balcony was not an issue.
I know these are scarce in Canada. If anyone is in the SW Ontario area and wants to hear these- just shoot me a PM.
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

What made you go with the fulcrum over the kla. ? I'm in the same boat . I'm looking to buy 4-6 to start . We run three similar systems and would eventually run them in all systems . Currently we run jbl srx tops with 2x18 Yamaha bottoms . Lab gruppen c68 amps and x32 consoles . We do combine systems for larger venues . And we plan to keep the srx tops as well . These will be replacing an older set of McCauley tops 15 horn loaded 10 and 4" horn . They are just heavy and need a lot of work . We spend days in bars with cover bands but continue to grow . Are you still happy with your purchase ?
 
Re: Help with purchase decision

Jeremy... I found myself to be in a similar situation as BJ. We may have the same answers.

I had set a budget of $10k-15K for new tops and I started looking at 4x dB DVA T8/JBL VRX932LAP and 2x Pole Mount kits. I was leaning towards the JBL's because I can rent them anywhere in DC, if I ever needed an event that I could fly >6 per side.

Height Issue: Your average Dual 18" sub is only about 40" in height. I like to have the horn up 78”-84” in the air; so you need to come up with a way to get the LA box up 35”.

Strength in Numbers: I thought the high end of the T4/932 projected much better than the SRX… but the SRX had a better mid & low range. You needed about 4-5x T4’s to equal the low end output of an SRX22.

Another thing that held me back from the LA's is the "longer the line, better the control patterns"; some say you need at least 4 boxes while other say it has to be at least 6' in total length (tops).

One of my main deciding factors was when I was A2/Freelancing at a small gig with a VRX system (2 tops/1 sub per side). I ask Lead if I could try setting up the 1 side by myself because I was looking at buying this similar rig (he agreed and watched incase of an Oh Shit happened). Getting 1 VRX on a stick is easy, but when you get the bottom box 5.5'-6' in the air, it becomes very tricky. I did it all by myself, but I didn't like doing it; that was reason I shy'd more away from the SmallLA system.

I went from the SRX722 into FA22ac; I am going to be using my FA22ac on my A, B & C rigs (I don’t rent PA rigs out; just size them for the room). The rig differences are the amount of subs: A = 4, B = 2, C = 0.

I demo'd the FA22ac in a larger than normal room I am in and fell in love (see pic). After the dinner set, the band did a mix between Mo-town and Top-40 Dance songs... at one point, I was in the 6-10db into limiters with the IT8000/4xSRX718s and the FA22ac cruised right along like it was normal.
 

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