How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

[Marsellus Fariss]

A lot of wedges I come across comb pretty bad when used in pairs on a single mix yet everybody still wants a pairs of wedges for their muso's on one mix. What's the story with wedges and combing? Any tricks? I'm currently using EAW SM159's. 15" with horizontally oriented horn above the woofer which I'm sure adds to the problem however it's not exclusive to higher frequencies.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

A lot of wedges I come across comb pretty bad when used in pairs on a single mix yet everybody still wants a pairs of wedges for their muso's on one mix. What's the story with wedges and combing? Any tricks? I'm currently using EAW SM159's. 15" with horizontally oriented horn above the woofer which I'm sure adds to the problem however it's not exclusive to higher frequencies.

A lot of it has to do with ego. There is no way 2 monitors is going to sound as good as a single (due tot he interactions as you noted).

Yes 2 will have more bass (which I generally try to get rid of in monitors to reduce the bleed) and they will be "louder" than a single (of the same model).

So unless you are running the monitors up to their max output (and I am not talking about the point of feedback), then a single will be clearer-and do what a monitor is SUPPOSED to do-let the musician clearly hear what they need.

But if they want 2 (because that is what they see others using), well there is not a lot you can do (about the interference anyway).

 

[Marsellus Fariss]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

Yes more bass as they will couple if they're close. And you could affect the frequency the low freq drivers couple at by moving them apart but you can't do that with the horns. And it doesn't help with combing as far as I know.


And you know every time I find myself in this situation I suggest putting the wedges on two mixes with vocal only in one. But they always say "that's too weird" and go on listening to two wedges combing.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

A lot of it has to do with ego. There is no way 2 monitors is going to sound as good as a single (due tot he interactions as you noted).

Yes 2 will have more bass (which I generally try to get rid of in monitors to reduce the bleed) and they will be "louder" than a single (of the same model).

So unless you are running the monitors up to their max output (and I am not talking about the point of feedback), then a single will be clearer-and do what a monitor is SUPPOSED to do-let the musician clearly hear what they need.

But if they want 2 (because that is what they see others using), well there is not a lot you can do (about the interference anyway).

A lot of singers nee to "lean into" the mic to have the right vocal technique. To get them on-axis with the mix the mic needs to be tilted up pretty severely.

If the mic is supercardioid the most efficient way to get the monitor(s) in the "null(s)" of the mic is the typical one monitor to either side-technique.

If the singers are fine with having the mic horizontal and can keep it that way for a whole show, putting the monitor right behind the stand, perhaps a few feet away from the base of the stand, will put the monitor right in the "null" of a supercardioid.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

I have a bunch of the SM159zi's as well. When using 2 of any wedge for the same mix I generally will spead the pair out and try to cover a wider zone in the case of a vocalist or musician that likes to move around in a wide area. They never notice the lobeing or at least never complain about it. I usually hi pass them pretty high anyway for most vocalist. In the case of the ego thing that Ivan mentioned, who cares what it really sounds like if they are happy with it and it does not cause any problems on stage. We are working for them anyway in the monitor position. I have on occasion been able to cure the "I need 2 monitors for my fragile little ego" thing by using one of the more powerful wedges and turning it up really loud. After they give me the "turn it down" signal we are usually good for the night.

 

[Marsellus Fariss]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

I have a bunch of the SM159zi's as well. When using 2 I generally will spead the pair out and try to cover a wider zone in the case of a vocalist or musician that likes to move around in a wide area. They never notice the lobeing or at least never complain about it. I usually hi pass them pretty high anyway for most vocalist. In the case of the ego thing that Ivan mentioned, who cares what it really sounds like if they are happy with it and it does not cause any problems on stage. We are working for them anyway in the monitor position. I have on occasion been able to cure the "I need 2 monitors for my fragile little ego" thing by using one of the more powerful wedges and turning it up really loud. After they give me the "turn it down" signal we are usually good for the night.

Hey eric, are you doing anything to them DSP wise? Just curious.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

Hey eric, are you doing anything to them DSP wise? Just curious.

I am actually getting ready to bi-amp them. They are a recent purchase and after using active bi-amped monitors exclusively for years they aren't quite as clear and have a few more peaks than I am used to. They get plenty loud for what they are but require some EQ to smooth them out. The other thing is being able to voltage limit the amps for each driver will go a long way in not blowing them up for awhile. I spoke with Phil Graham about setting them up for me and his recommendation on a processor. I will be glad to share that info with you when I get it done although it really won't apply to using a single amp and running through the passive crossover. I had actually thought about doing a post with some before and after traces to see what difference it really makes and if I thought it was really worth the cost of the extra amps, processor, and set up cost, if Phil doesn't mind posting his results.

 

[Marsellus Fariss]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

I am actually getting ready to bi-amp them. They are a recent purchase and after using active bi-amped monitors exclusively for years they aren't quite as clear and have a few more peaks than I am used to. They get plenty loud for what they are but require some EQ to smooth them out. The other thing is being able to voltage limit the amps for each driver will go a long way in not blowing them up for awhile. I spoke with Phil Graham about setting them up for me and his recommendation on a processor. I will be glad to share that info with you when I get it done although it really won't apply to using a single amp and running through the passive crossover. I had actually thought about doing a post with some before and after traces to see what difference it really makes and if I thought it was really worth the cost of the extra amps, processor, and set up cost, if Phil doesn't mind posting his results.

You didn't happen to buy 4 from a guy in Apharetta did you? That would be ironic. I haven't pinked them them yet myself just cause I've not had time but I suspect I'll want to make a couple of tweaks though I'm happy with them over all. I'd be interested to know what you do with them passive. I've just been pulling some 100 and 6.3 at the graph so far.

 

[Jay Barracato]

If the singers are fine with having the mic horizontal and can keep it that way for a whole show, putting the monitor right behind the stand, perhaps a few feet away from the base of the stand, will put the monitor right in the "null" of a supercardioid.

I am glad you posted that. I have a hard time convincing some people that the pattern is 360 degrees and you can keep the monitor in the null by keeping the mic parallel to the ground.

On the other hand, I think our ears are more directional than most people think and if the monitors are about 4 feet in front of the musician and separated by 4 feet, then each ear is registering one monitor as the primary source and the brain filters out most of the combing. Since combing is due to a time difference, the closer to the source the person is the less difference in times can exist.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

You didn't happen to buy 4 from a guy in Apharetta did you? That would be ironic. I haven't pinked them them yet myself just cause I've not had time but I suspect I'll want to make a couple of tweaks though I'm happy with them over all. I'd be interested to know what you do with them passive. I've just been pulling some 100 and 6.3 at the graph so far.

Actually they were purchased together by his friend Mike when Landon bought those if that is who you are talking about. I was going to buy his as well but he never got back to me. Maybe that is why. It is at least good to know someone in the "family" got them. Your cuts sound familar. I seem to recall 1.5k being hot also and a small dip being needed at 3.1k. I just used some analog EQ's to tame them. I was outside and used them on 3 of last weeks shows but that has been the extent of it for me personally so far. I did use 2 for the vocalist on a really wide stage and spread them 6-8 feet apart and they worked out really well.

 

[Marsellus Fariss]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

Actually they were purchased together by his friend Mike when Landon bought those if that is who you are talking about. I was going to buy his as well but he never got back to me. Maybe that is why. It is at least good to know someone in the "family" got them. Your cuts sound familar. I seem to recall 1.5k being hot also and a small dip being needed at 3.1k. I just used some analog EQ's to tame them. I was outside and used them on 3 of last weeks shows but that has been the extent of it for me personally so far. I did use 2 for the vocalist on a really wide stage and spread them 6-8 feet apart and they worked out really well.

That's the ones. I would have bought all 8 but he had sold half off already.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

That's the ones. I would have bought all 8 but he had sold half off already. Did you wind up with those? I jumped on them pretty quick so maybe thats why you never heard from him. I like them a lot. it's a good wedge.

I'm gonna go back through my cabling and check for polarity problems cause the combing I heard the other night was the worst I've experienced. though I doubt one being out of polarity would have caused what I heard.

I got the ones from Mike. They were all bought together with yours at a bulk price a few years ago. One of mine had a bad crossover so that was part of the excuse to go ahead and modify them for bi-amping. At least that is what I am using to justify the expense. I like them as well but I am really used to the sound and smoothness of active DSP processing. I don't think I have had to touch a 31 band more than a handful of times in the last few years. It has made me lazy with the monitor rigs. It is also real easy to get a good sound fast with them. I really needed to spend some time with an analyzer and the EQ's and clean the SM 159's up a bit more but they were at least plenty loud after I rang them out. I remember making 4 or 5 cuts per box very quickly though. Usually it is none or one or two at the very most. Most of my shows are outside though. The time I used two of them split for the vocalist the combing wasn't that bad. It had some lobeing but not that sandpaper harshness that comb filtering sometimes has.

 

[Brad Harris]

I am glad you posted that. I have a hard time convincing some people that the pattern is 360 degrees and you can keep the monitor in the null by keeping the mic parallel to the ground.

On the other hand, I think our ears are more directional than most people think and if the monitors are about 4 feet in front of the musician and separated by 4 feet, then each ear is registering one monitor as the primary source and the brain filters out most of the combing. Since combing is due to a time difference, the closer to the source the person is the less difference in times can exist.

+1 on polar patterns. Most of the artists I work with, you work around them, not the other way around (re: mic angle).

As for dual wedges I find a lot of people place them wider and angle them too far in, and then wonder if they are in polarity or just 'wierd'. I haven't noticed the each ear gets it's own wedge and the brain cancells the combfiltering I find its worse actually.

Keep them flat (ie in the same pane not angled in) and just cut what you need for the wedge to accomplish. Most times (on riders) its either coverage, or spl for reasons for having dual wedges. Keeping then flat and close (3-12" apart) I find (for most wedges I've come across) them to do everything I need them too.

I will deviate for certain circumstances due to the nature of the artist and what needs to be accomplished. (ie one artist, depending if it's a full band or acoustic (either solo or partial band) goes from parallel wedges for coverage (plus side fill) to moderately angled wedges tilted up)

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

+1 on polar patterns. Most of the artists I work with, you work around them, not the other way around (re: mic angle).

As for dual wedges I find a lot of people place them wider and angle them too far in, and then wonder if they are in polarity or just 'wierd'. I haven't noticed the each ear gets it's own wedge and the brain cancells the combfiltering I find its worse actually.

Keep them flat (ie in the same pane not angled in) and just cut what you need for the wedge to accomplish. Most times (on riders) its either coverage, or spl for reasons for having dual wedges. Keeping then flat and close (3-12" apart) I find (for most wedges I've come across) them to do everything I need them too.

I will deviate for certain circumstances due to the nature of the artist and what needs to be accomplished. (ie one artist, depending if it's a full band or acoustic (either solo or partial band) goes from parallel wedges for coverage (plus side fill) to moderately angled wedges tilted up)

Polar patterns are "greek" to surprisingly many techs.

I'm leaning more and more towards the concept of putting the monitors with the horns IN and putting them directly side-to-side. This should take care of some combing, give better LF buildup, save space on stage, and have a placement that works OK if one wedge should die during the show.

Provided, of course, the mic is either cardioid with the null toward the wedge pair, or supercardioid but horizontally mounted.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: How to handle monitors combing when in pairs.

As for dual wedges I find a lot of people place them wider and angle them too far in, and then wonder if they are in polarity or just 'wierd'. I haven't noticed the each ear gets it's own wedge and the brain cancells the combfiltering I find its worse actually.

Keep them flat (ie in the same pane not angled in) and just cut what you need for the wedge to accomplish. Most times (on riders) its either coverage, or spl for reasons for having dual wedges. Keeping then flat and close (3-12" apart) I find (for most wedges I've come across) them to do everything I need them too.

I keep them flat as well when using 2. In the case of the 159zi's they are a smaller monitor and tend to run out of gas quickly on top as you get toward the edge of the pattern. When using 2 to cover a wide area last week I used the unscientific method of walking the zone saying "check check hey hey" and moving them until it sounded best to me. It turned out to be around 6-8 feet for that application. You could hear some lobeing as you moved around but overall the sound was not harsh and it got the job done.