I think I'm digital desk cursed...

Mike Diack

Mike Diack

Sophomore
Jan 12, 2011
135
0
16
New Zealand
My first foray into digital desks (6 or 7 years ago) involved a Spirit 328. Went fine during the rehearsals and went into major continuous rebooting during a speech by our then prime minister. Major egg on face and I swore off them forever. Back to the dear old GL2200s (which have never put a foot wrong). Enough water had passed under the bridge that I thought I might dip my toe in the digital water again. Was lent a Presonus SL24/4/2 for a 4 day festival, for a "try before you buy". Seemed easy enough to work, and by the second day I was really starting to enjoy all the inbuilt fruit these things offer. I reckon it sounded better than the old A&H as well. I was ready to write out the cheque then and there. Third day, half way through soundcheck (thank fuck not later) it simply quit - no lights, no camera, no action. Mad scrabble and out comes the old A&H AGAIN. Finished the show despondently. I had been so leery about this thing to start with, it dragged me in hook line & sinker, then it dumped on me. Of course when I tried it out later in the workshop, it worked just fine. As a full time soldering iron jockey who only plays soundie for fun these days, I cannot justify spending the big bucks on a bigboy digital. Am I cursed to remain analog forever ?.
M
 
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Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

I wouldn't write off all digital desks based on one discontinued model and one sub-pro entry level model. Try an iLive or better for a current experience. I feel hampered on analog now.
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

at the risk of starting a 'brand war' which i am not interested in fighting anymore...

get a yamaha. 01v96 is the same kinda money as the presonus and i've hauled them all over the world and they just work. even when they don't work, they do. i've got one right now in my monitor rig with a bad noise in all the analog outputs. i don't need those outs [i use the digital outs only] and so i've been running it like this for a couple years now 'cause i haven't got around to getting it fixed. kinda like that bad input strip we'd live with on the analog desk since we never needed all the inputs anyway...

bottom line, my [extensive] experience with yamaha is that they are as reliable as any analog desk i've used. and at the end of the day, working gear beats broken gear every time...
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

Mike Diack said:
it simply quit - no lights, no camera, no action. Of course when I tried it out later in the workshop, it worked just fine.
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Hi Mike,
The only times I have EVER seen significant random bad behavior as you describe on a digital console has been due to power issues. I have never had an issue when powering a digital console through a good quality UPS (avoid the cheap ones, look for ones marketed as "pure sine wave"). IMHO a UPS should be considered mandatory.

Re the Studiolive 24 specifically, I've used that desk a fair bit, and have always used a UPS. No issues. However, recently I got a call that that same console had locked up on someone else's gig. First thing I asked was "did you use a UPS?". Nope. Hmmmmmmmm. I then proceeded to use that exact "bad" console that had locked up - without any issue - on another of my gigs. It was perfectly happy on my UPS. I owned a Studiolive 16 for a couple of years and it was the same story. Happy on UPS, prone to trouble without.

I think I have beat the UPS horse to death now. Sorry to hear about your bad experiences, particularly with the PM.
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

Jeff Babcock said:
Hi Mike,
The only times I have EVER seen significant random bad behavior as you describe on a digital console has been due to power issues. I have never had an issue when powering a digital console through a good quality UPS (avoid the cheap ones, look for ones marketed as "pure sine wave"). IMHO a UPS should be considered mandatory.

Re the Studiolive 24 specifically, I've used that desk a fair bit, and have always used a UPS. No issues. However, recently I got a call that that same console had locked up on someone else's gig. First thing I asked was "did you use a UPS?". Nope. Hmmmmmmmm. I then proceeded to use that exact "bad" console that had locked up - without any issue - on another of my gigs. It was perfectly happy on my UPS. I owned a Studiolive 16 for a couple of years and it was the same story. Happy on UPS, prone to trouble without.

I think I have beat the UPS horse to death now. Sorry to hear about your bad experiences, particularly with the PM.
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+1 on the UPS or a good line regulator.
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

If a UPS is mandatory, it seems the console maker could build one in. I recall seeing a similar issue with early digital power amps, where they would get stupid at low line mains voltage, long before analog amps, but this was just another technology quirk for designers to deal with, and isolated to one small fraction of the total circuitry. Perhaps the console makers don't want to add an expense to all models that is only mandatory for live sound reinforcement, with the generally lower quality power. The brains inside digital consoles are running from only a few volts, so it seems they should be able to keep that low voltage rail up, far easier than providing a full a sine wave output UPS. Who cares if the audio path suffers compromised headroom in the analog path during power dips, the amps aren't getting full power either. Experiencing a little clipping is not as bad as a total brain freeze.

Sorry, this would be funny if it wasn't real life. Robust, mains tolerant designs seems like just another feature, that pro Live SR gear should offer. A budget, or "all things to all customers" board may cut a few corners.

JR
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

Shane Presley said:
I was going to say I've been using my Ls-9 32 since DEC 2006 without any UPS, and it died, ummmmm not ONCE. Having said that I've probbaly jinxed myself for this year... but yeah if you need a bandaid to fix something out of the box.....
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Shane, I think you could say that about pretty much any Yamaha digital. No argument there.... the Yamaha engineers seem to have conquered that one, and I certainly hold them in high regard for reliability. Some manufacturer's consoles seem to be more prone to these sorts of issues than others. I know for sure that the Studiolive models are happier on a UPS, and found the same to be true of a variety of other digital desks, particularly ones outside of what I consider the "varsity" market (though I would consider SC48 varsity).
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

My 01V96 has been through hell. it lives in a trailer year round. goes down to -20 degree F temps, up to 100 Degree F. and anything in between. the Only time I've had something weird was on a 150ft run of power, and that was because the lights were dimming with the kick drum. aka not enough juice. Backed it down to what I could pull off. and called it a day.

Get a Yamaha or similar desk that's been around the block for a few years.
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

It is no coincidence that Yamaha pioneered the digital mixer category so has many years of experience and understands the demands of live SR.

JR
 
Looks like my comment may have been seen as ignoring the reliability of even the lower end Yamaha consoles. My point was that a discontinued and a very low end model are not indicative of the broad touring digital console market as a whole. Yes, even the 01V96 is known as reliable, I have installed and used several; I don't think it should be used as an example of the industry though.
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

John Roberts said:
If a UPS is mandatory, it seems the console maker could build one in. I recall seeing a similar issue with early digital power amps, where they would get stupid at low line mains voltage, long before analog amps, but this was just another technology quirk for designers to deal with, and isolated to one small fraction of the total circuitry. Perhaps the console makers don't want to add an expense to all models that is only mandatory for live sound reinforcement, with the generally lower quality power. The brains inside digital consoles are running from only a few volts, so it seems they should be able to keep that low voltage rail up, far easier than providing a full a sine wave output UPS. Who cares if the audio path suffers compromised headroom in the analog path during power dips, the amps aren't getting full power either. Experiencing a little clipping is not as bad as a total brain freeze.

Sorry, this would be funny if it wasn't real life. Robust, mains tolerant designs seems like just another feature, that pro Live SR gear should offer. A budget, or "all things to all customers" board may cut a few corners.

JR
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"Nobody" uses UPS here - they're considered a novelty, almost. The only regular users I know of are people who set up in-store servers, etc, and they use them to protect data, not filter the mains.

In my opinion, a well-designed and modern electronics product should be about as picky about line voltage as a lightbulb :D

I also fully agree that it must be a lot more efficient to super-regulate a low-level DC voltage, possibly hooking it up in paralell with a small internal battery, than to rectify and regulate mains voltage, hook it in paralell with big batteries, chop up the voltage to something resembling sine wave, run that into a PSU, transform it down, rectify and re-regulate it.
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

kristianjohnsen said:
"Nobody" uses UPS here - they're considered a novelty, almost. The only regular users I know of are people who set up in-store servers, etc, and they use them to protect data, not filter the mains.

In my opinion, a well-designed and modern electronics product should be about as picky about line voltage as a lightbulb :D

I also fully agree that it must be a lot more efficient to super-regulate a low-level DC voltage, possibly hooking it up in paralell with a small internal battery, than to rectify and regulate mains voltage, hook it in paralell with big batteries, chop up the voltage to something resembling sine wave, run that into a PSU, transform it down, rectify and re-regulate it.
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I always thought it was silly to connect a 12V car battery to a UPS to up convert to 120V for a computer that was only going to drop it back down to 5V again.

Of course you think UPS are quant... but in many parts of the world mains power is still less robust than today's Europe. Peavey had great success with the old CS800 because it would run all the way down to crazy low line voltages (80V or less) and keep on trucking... Down in south America they called the CS800 el burro (the mule). Trying to service the world market, was always a handful, with extremes of low and high mains voltages. Not to mention customers abusing the old 220/240 bump switches for a little extra power. I've heard stories about countries in the middle east, where different sides of one street were alternately 220v or 240v. Oz was notorious for product killing high mains voltages, when they probably bumped it up a bunch higher at the sub-station to carry out over longer distance runs into the countryside. It's not easy being el burro... but the major manufacturers learned to deal with such things, that's how they became major manufacturers.

JR
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

kristianjohnsen said:
"Nobody" uses UPS here - they're considered a novelty, almost. The only regular users I know of are people who set up in-store servers, etc, and they use them to protect data, not filter the mains.

In my opinion, a well-designed and modern electronics product should be about as picky about line voltage as a lightbulb :D
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I don't use the UPS to regulate the power, I use it to keep the console from having to reboot if there is an electrical failure. While rare, I have dealt with more than a few over the years, and a UPS is an easy way to avoid the reboot process when power is restored.

The fascination with power "conditioners" always amuses me. The cheap ones are worse than not having them, and the expensive ones are treating a problem that wasn't there to begin with.

IIRC, I have never had "bad power" damage any console, or other equipment. I have had bad power cables do that, but that is a quality control issue.

Mac
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

mackerr said:
The fascination with power "conditioners" always amuses me. The cheap ones are worse than not having them, and the expensive ones are treating a problem that wasn't there to begin with.

IIRC, I have never had "bad power" damage any console, or other equipment. I have had bad power cables do that, but that is a quality control issue.

Mac
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My suggestion of a UPS to essentially "condition" the power SHOULD be a case of treating a problem that isn't there to begin with, but the reality of the situation is that sometimes it IS a problem, particularly with certain digital consoles and digital gear. This isn't about snake oil..... Mac, you're using big boy toys, but things are different in the Jr Varsity world where you're often unsure of what sort of power you're being given, everything from homebrew distros to cheap chinese generators which I have seen cause issues with a lot more than just consoles..... not to mention the common scenario of running a whole rig on 1 or 2 circuits.

Back to the OP's Studiolive example, I don't even second guess myself when I say they are happier on a UPS. My firsthand experiences combined with plenty of stories confirm this. This SHOULD NOT be the case, however............

On a related note, it seems that Presonus has made (recent) changes to the design of the power supply in the StudioLive consoles. Certainly there was a lot of noise in their forums about power sensitivity issues. Interesting.

Jeff
 
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Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

mackerr said:
I don't use the UPS to regulate the power, I use it to keep the console from having to reboot if there is an electrical failure. While rare, I have dealt with more than a few over the years, and a UPS is an easy way to avoid the reboot process when power is restored.
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Then you're using them for the purpose their name implies :)

Great thing about the PM1D is that the audio still passes through the DSP1D on stage even if FOH dies. I had a gig with my 01v96 where there were multiple power failures where it would have been nice to avoid the boot-up time.

I still think we will see consoles in the future that have a backup battery inside that will be like a UPS only for the core processors. Control, metering and display dies but the brains are in suspended animation for super-fast reeboot once power is restored. That way we maintain the efficiency that JR longs for also. I remember you and I having this discussion on the old LAB also. Only time will tell.
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

I'm having difficulty understanding how a UPS could be of any use in this situation. The PSU in the SL24/4/2 is a universal switchmode - it operates anywhere between 90 and 240 volts - if the volts go down, the amps go up (within that window) and the output remains the same. The idea of preregulating the power seems silly. In the case of breif power interruptions, I can see the point - saving reboot time, but in this case there were no interruptions of power to FOH. The desk simply stopped working while all the other paraphenalia stayed alive, then came back to life after it had been removed from the rig. I suspect thermally related issues. It seems like the 01v96 is the answer even though I hate the layering of functions and the necessity to use external boxes to get a decent input count (Barfringer ADA8k to the rescue (-: ). The iLive is just silly at my level.
M
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

Mike Diack said:
It seems like the 01v96 is the answer even though I hate the layering of functions and the necessity to use external boxes to get a decent input count (Barfringer ADA8k to the rescue (-: ).
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yeah, i would concur with you on all these points. FWIW, i've got 4 01v96s that have been on 24/7 for about 5 years now in a building notorious for random power failures/drops and have only that one afore-mentioned failure to report. i've also got about 10 of those ADA8Ks in service as well and they've fared well although not as bulletproof as my 01v96s. but they're so cheap i just keep a couple spares around just in case...
 
Re: I think I'm digital desk cursed...

Mike Diack said:
It seems like the 01v96 is the answer even though I hate the layering of functions and the necessity to use external boxes to get a decent input count (Barfringer ADA8k to the rescue (-: ). The iLive is just silly at my level.
M
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If you need more than the first page of inputs, a second 01v96 is a great way to minimize layer flipping, and the pair of them aren't too big physically. I've run this way for 8 years and other than having to replace one blown pre-amp (I live in the frozen land of static electricity that apparently zapped one of the pre amps in one of my boards), they have been perfectly reliable. I know people get bent out of shape about the "difficulty of using all those buried menus", but my experience has been that once you get your board patched correctly the first time, day to day operation is not really any harder than anything else. Everything is pretty much one button away - dynamics, EQ, etc.

Depending on your perspective and timelines, this is either a really terrible or great time to buy 01v96s. It's hard for me to be excited about moving to an 8-year old product when there are some really cool choices coming out such as the A&H GLD series, but the upside for you is that 01v96 prices will be falling on the used market as people like me move out of them. Since Yamaha just announced the rev 3 01v96 with USB audio interface, it's clear they will be supporting them for a while.
 
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