Legality

R

Randy Frierson

Freshman
Jan 18, 2011
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So the MLA post has me thinking....Hmmmmmmm So is there any legal requirements to say bring a PA into a nightclub and rent your services? We have a guy in town that has a decent band pa and rents him and it out for $500 a night and he's doing some regional and national acts, it's our account but the venue just cant justify paying me $1,500..Of course i would bring out better gear, and a qualified sound engineer, i also would be paying my guy over 1/2 of what the other guy gets for the entire gig, my pa would require a truck and a couple hands to help my guy set it up, The $500 guy has a couple powered mackie fusions over a 2x18 sub and 4 passive mixes from foh using a AHB...system does not give the concert experience but its OK for that room and bands will use it...i would bring in as a min 2 PPA 312's over 2 PPA Tour subs (per side) or Meyer Melodie ground stacked over 600hp's, SC 48 with 4 mixes of EV XW12a wedges with a powered drum box.

most importantly i have general liability, workers comp and a city and state license..I believe my company charges a fair rate and delivers excellent service but day in and day out we lose to the above guy..I was young once and that is my problem i guess...should i make a stink? I'm not going to match his price so what else is there.....just thoughts
 
Re: Legality

This is pretty much the definition of a free market is it not? Production companies have the right to charge what they feel is a fair price. And promoters have the right to hire any company they choose for any reason, especially on the private level.
 
Re: Legality

Sure they do. And it's my job to inform my clients or potential clients that we're fully insured and offer binders and certificates for their events. I suggest that they require the insurance info as a qualification to receive a bid request. Some clients don't give shit, though, and club owners are chief among them.



I think Randy's rig is overkill considering what other guy is providing and the client has found acceptable, and I don't see how he'd make money on it at $1500/night. That said, there's nothing wrong with wanting the most level competitive field one can have, and if Randy really wants to cause this guy some grief with the various taxing, insurance and state labor authorities he can do so. If the guy gets shut down or has to raise rates, Randy will have pissed off his prospect, who'll just go hire another bottom feeder.



Tim Mc
 
Re: Legality

The rig i would use actually is perfect for the room and gives the best coverage and gets the tops at the height so all have a good chance to get good sound...I do agree that the Sc 48 and maybe the wedges are overkill, i really need to get a digital console in the under $8,000 range and some good loud acceptable passive weges would be good..room holds around 1000 folks..the other night i went to see the guy and his system work and i his mix was nice but the pa did not excite me and when i first walked in i could hardly hear it and as i got closer i realized his tops were to low...he ran his console slap out of headroom and had nothing left in his powered cabinets...band were not happy they kinda just accepted their fate...i did find out from the owner of the club that the promoter put on his sheet he used to settle with the artist that he paid 1500 for sound, 750 for lights and stagehands and on and on, when in reality it was 500 and no lights (just club) and there were no stagehands just a buddy of his...Look im trying to run a business and employ sound and lighting folks and insure they get paid fairly and have a future..i just wish the guys who are doing this on the side would stick to bar bands and stay away from concert productions..i told the guy before the new guy if you just raised your price they'd have to pay you and i cant believe it but they let him go and found another guy...they are everywhere..

Not Bitter just thoughts rambling around in my head
 
Re: Legality

If you start a problem then you'll be labled as the ''trouble maker'' from now on. Word gets around town fast ya know.



Try to sit down, in a professional style meeting, and educate your customer on what the difference is betweem you and the other guy. Maybe he will see the light.
 
Re: Legality

There are a couple issues. One is the ownership or organizational entity. Is he a sole proprietorship or corporation?



In Quebec, you may operate a sole proprietorship with under $30,000/year in revenue without registration. After $30,000 you must register for collecting sales tax, and if you wish to operate as anything other than your full name (Ie Marlow Wilson Productions is okay, Wilson Sound would not be) you need to register the name as well.



If you begin a corporation, that legal entity has a host of legal requirements that must be maintained and it must, regardless of the sales, collect and remit tax. This is all to say that from a organizational perspective, it is possible in some jurisdictions to operate bare-bones. I doubt Florida any similar laws, but I'm just putting it out there.



The next issue are the operational legalities.



It's impossible to know what your competitor has or doesn't have, but I'm willing to bet he's breaking a handful of laws, many on the transport side of things. Something along the lines of 'transporting goods in the pursuit of commerce' might be hidden from his insurance company.



Also, most residential areas prohibit commerce, so his home based business (assuming it's home based) may be breaking local ordinances. If it is a real business, and he is allowed to operate a business in his area, there are likely a host of other inspection and compliance elements that he is not following. I make these assumptions because at $500 a night there is no way he could be compliant and cover expenses.



As for what you should do? In my experience, you'll have a hard time getting the client on side by suggesting the competition is operating illegally. Does the client care if the providers warehouse is ADA compliant and if the fire exits are clear and properly marked in the event of an emergency? Does it care if you keep driver logs and he doesn't? The greatest cause for liability for venues here are over-serving customers (who drive and kill people) and excessive use of force by security personnel. The additional liability of hiring a rogue sound provider may pale in comparison to the other issues faced by the venue.

 
Re: Legality

Randy,



I'm kindof with you. I don't understand why we should be expected to compete with people who don't play by the rules.



I am unaware of a state or locality that doesn't require even sole proprietorships to have a business license; When we go in to a venue, we're regularly asked to demonstrate that we have workman's comp, general liability, and to list the venue as ''additionally insured.'' Why do the small guys not have to do this? The concept of ''free market'' only holds true if everyone is held to the same requirements.



That said, I don't think I'd raise a fuss with the authorities or anything. At best, I would hint at it with the customer; give them a call to see what events they have coming up that you might be able to help with; when they tell you ''We're covered,'' you can be the good guy:



''Okay, glad to hear you've got everything covered. Between you and me, I'm surprised a business can operate at that price. You might want to check to make sure he's licensed and insured, just to cover your butts. There are some really great small companies out there, but a few that could get you in trouble if something ever happens.''
 
Re: Legality

E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Fri said:
I am unaware of a state or locality that doesn't require even sole proprietorships to have a business license;
Click to expand...



In Pennsylvania,you don't need a license to be in the sound bussiness.You also don't need a license to be a carpenter or electrician in most areas. Some larger cities and municipalites require licenses,but most areas do not.The areas that don't have licensing requirments ( for carpenters or electricians)do mandate ( state law)that you pull permits and get work inspected.I do have a state bussiness license for my electrical bussiness,but that's only been in effect about 2 years and is only required for residential work,not commercial.Some municipalities ask for insurance and some don't.

I think Randy needs to talk to the owner and make sure this guy has insurance,both liability and workers comp.Because if a cabinet falls on someone or the sound guys ''buddy ''gets hurt,the club owner could be held responsible for those costs.My insurance makes me get certificates of insurance for any sub contractors.If I don't have them on file and get audited,my rates go up.I have never been asked to provide a certificate of insurance for an install and can only recall once or twice having to provide one for live sound.
 
Re: Legality

Interestingly enough, in Los Angeles the venues who pay more and have bigger gigs all require proof of insurance (and more recently proof of worker's comp also). The small clubs that only want to pay you $500 a night (or less usually) make you work twice as hard for it and don't ever ask for proof of insurance.



It's far more lucrative and less work to be doing the bigger venues.



The way I feel about it, those cheap clubs are for the up-and-comers. I did them back when I didn't have all my ducks in a row and was still learning the business. If you're past that, leave those gigs to the people who aren't. There will always be promoters and clubs who will go for the least cost option, no matter what the quality and liability. You don't really want to compete for those -- it's a race to the bottom.
 
One thing to consider is that sometimes another person's (The Club) insurance rate can be set at a lower premium if they can show that their vendors have insurance. Insurance companies like to see primary insurance as much as possible. So if a loudspeaker fell and hurt someone because of sound vendor negligence than the sound vendor's insurance would be the primary and the club's the secondary.
I don't really know if this carries over in all states or not but it did when I used to own a very large dry hire rental company. My rates were significantly lower if I could prove that my company always had another insurance policy from my client ( the guy who rented from me) covering the gear. Check this out. Some club owners might listen more if they knew they would save money and be more protected.
 
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