Lousy broadcast audio

Re: Lousy broadcast audio

I dunno, maybe it's because I only have a normal TV (no 5.1 or anything) but twice in the past few days while watching a football game, the field sound was so loud I could not hear the commentators at all.

Doesn't anyone monitor the broadcast?



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Sorry. I had to go to the toilet......
 
Re: Lousy broadcast audio

I often wonder if anyone is bothering with a stereo-compatible broadcast mix these days. I've heard too many events over the air that sounded like they were completely missing the center channel, and someone upstream was using center channel to carry 80% of the voices.
 
Re: Lousy broadcast audio

I dunno, maybe it's because I only have a normal TV (no 5.1 or anything) but twice in the past few days while watching a football game, the field sound was so loud I could not hear the commentators at all.

Doesn't anyone monitor the broadcast?



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I often wonder if anyone is bothering with a stereo-compatible broadcast mix these days. I've heard too many events over the air that sounded like they were completely missing the center channel, and someone upstream was using center channel to carry 80% of the voices.

Well, Monday night football had good audio for the first game but game two has the crowd noise WAY too loud!
I can't hear the announcers. Sigh...


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Yes people monitor the broadcast. Yes people do stereo compliant mixes.

Trust me, these mixes sound great leaving the truck. There are literally hundreds of components between the truck and your television. A lot of blame goes on the cable/satellite/terrestrial broadcasters but a lot of blame also goes on consumer equipment and consumers.

You would not believe the hoops mixers go through to make sure they are meeting broadcast/loudness spec just to have their mix fucked up by a box that no one is allowed to touch at a particular head end. Don't get me started on all the consumer TV and receiver settings which sound like complete ass but are the default.

Please give your hardworking broadcast mixer/A1 a break. Please take my word for it that these are not where the deaf people go to mix after they have done too much of rock and roll. They are forced into a no-win situation between idiot broadcasters trying to maintain legal levels through legacy equipment which doesn't work correctly for modern digital broadcast (which they are too cheap to replace) and consumers/installers who incorrectly set up their home equipment.

You don't want to even think about the percentage of Dolby Pro Logic mixes getting mangled by other DSP settings or vice versa!

One engineer told me that if 20% of the people watching at home actually hear his mix the way it is intended then that's a win in 2012.

Thankfully a lot of this will shake out over the next few years.... but its going to continue being a rough ride until standards/laws are agreed upon and ACTUALLY FOLLOWED THE WAY THEY ARE INTENDED TO BE FOLLOWED.


In other words if you think the mix is wrong (and chances are it is), in this circumstance, the LAST person I would blame is the mixer.

Sorry for the rant!

Cheers
 
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Re: Lousy broadcast audio

Yes people monitor the broadcast. Yes people do stereo compliant mixes.

Trust me, these mixes sound great leaving the truck. There are literally hundreds of components between the truck and your television. A lot of blame goes on the cable/satellite/terrestrial broadcasters but a lot of blame also goes on consumer equipment and consumers.

You would not believe the hoops mixers go through to make sure they are meeting broadcast/loudness spec just to have their mix fucked up by a box that no one is allowed to touch at a particular head end. Don't get me started on all the consumer TV and receiver settings which sound like complete ass but are the default.

Please give your hardworking broadcast mixer/A1 a break. Please take my word for it that these are not where the deaf people go to mix after they have done too much of rock and roll. They are forced into a no-win situation between idiot broadcasters trying to maintain legal levels through legacy equipment which doesn't work correctly for modern digital broadcast (which they are too cheap to replace) and consumers/installers who incorrectly set up their home equipment.

You don't want to even think about the percentage of Dolby Pro Logic mixes getting mangled by other DSP settings or vice versa!

One engineer told me that if 20% of the people watching at home actually hear his mix the way it is intended then that's a win in 2012.

Thankfully a lot of this will shake out over the next few years.... but its going to continue being a rough ride until standards/laws are agreed upon and ACTUALLY FOLLOWED THE WAY THEY ARE INTENDED TO BE FOLLOWED.


In other words if you think the mix is wrong (and chances are it is), in this circumstance, the LAST person I would blame is the mixer.

Sorry for the rant!

Cheers

I'll admit it's mostly small time, but I do occasionally mix for broadcast. It doesn't matter how good it sounds in the truck, just as it doesn't matter how good a mix sounds directly out of the console in a live situation. When I do broadcast audio I keep the end result in mind. If that means pre-processing to squash the dynamics, EQing to prevent false triggering of compressors, and adjusting the mix for clarity, then I do it. I know it doesn't matter how many hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment is in the truck, as my mix will likely eventually get squeezed through an little 8 channel $100 mixer before it gets to air.

Yes, consumer equipment sucks, but that's what we are mixing for. Perhaps we need to go back to monitoring with that pair of Auratones on the meter bridge so that we aren't sending an unusable product out of the truck.
 
Re: Lousy broadcast audio

I'll admit it's mostly small time, but I do occasionally mix for broadcast. It doesn't matter how good it sounds in the truck, just as it doesn't matter how good a mix sounds directly out of the console in a live situation. When I do broadcast audio I keep the end result in mind. If that means pre-processing to squash the dynamics, EQing to prevent false triggering of compressors, and adjusting the mix for clarity, then I do it. I know it doesn't matter how many hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment is in the truck, as my mix will likely eventually get squeezed through an little 8 channel $100 mixer before it gets to air.

Yes, consumer equipment sucks, but that's what we are mixing for. Perhaps we need to go back to monitoring with that pair of Auratones on the meter bridge so that we aren't sending an unusable product out of the truck.

While your point is not lost on me, i think you missed the central point that Mike Brown was making. The problem for the truck engineer is that there are so many systems hitting his mix after it leaves the truck that there is no way to adequately plan and compensate for them all. The approach you are suggesting worked well back in the day when nearly all TVs had a 5 inch mono speaker for audio. Now that's just not the case. For instance, let's say he squeezes all the dynamics out and 'adjusts the mix for clarity'. Chances are that that mix is gonna sound pretty awful in my properly set up 5.1 home theater, assuming it actually arrives at it's destination even resembling it's original self. Factor in all the myriad of devices, Codecs, and A/D and D/A conversions along the way and you've got an untenable situation.

I think Mike's main point is a valid one. Top level broadcast engineers didn't get there while remaining clueless as to how to generate a competent mix. Pretty much all the truck mixes i've heard, and done, left the truck sounding quite good. The issue we're having now is that the equipment the signal passes through on it's way to your TV set adheres to no real standard, so the end result is all over the place. This is a direct result of the evolution of broadcast audio, including 5.1 technology. There are just simply too many variables and too many manufacturers who adhere to whatever methodology they feel is best. And until the industry sets and adheres to some kind of measurable standard, this situation will continue.
 
Re: Lousy broadcast audio

While your point is not lost on me, i think you missed the central point that Mike Brown was making. The problem for the truck engineer is that there are so many systems hitting his mix after it leaves the truck that there is no way to adequately plan and compensate for them all. The approach you are suggesting worked well back in the day when nearly all TVs had a 5 inch mono speaker for audio. Now that's just not the case. For instance, let's say he squeezes all the dynamics out and 'adjusts the mix for clarity'. Chances are that that mix is gonna sound pretty awful in my properly set up 5.1 home theater, assuming it actually arrives at it's destination even resembling it's original self. Factor in all the myriad of devices, Codecs, and A/D and D/A conversions along the way and you've got an untenable situation.

I think Mike's main point is a valid one. Top level broadcast engineers didn't get there while remaining clueless as to how to generate a competent mix. Pretty much all the truck mixes i've heard, and done, left the truck sounding quite good. The issue we're having now is that the equipment the signal passes through on it's way to your TV set adheres to no real standard, so the end result is all over the place. This is a direct result of the evolution of broadcast audio, including 5.1 technology. There are just simply too many variables and too many manufacturers who adhere to whatever methodology they feel is best. And until the industry sets and adheres to some kind of measurable standard, this situation will continue.


Exactly. Its not as simple as making sure the mix sounds good on different sets of monitors.... or squashed to reduce apparent dynamic range... or that the piece of crap consumer equipment is + or - 5 dB from 20hz to 20khz.... it is so much more complicated than that.

Look at some of the posts in the Olympics thread.... notice all the different people saying its great for them.... notice all the different people saying its awful. Very little of the negative feedback is the fault of the mix engineer.
 
Ok, the mix is great when it leaves truck...
Right now I am watching NESN (Red Sox) and the sound is fine.

Last night was Monday night football on ESPN. It was a double header. First game is from Baltimore. Audio is great. The ambiance mix is plenty below the commentators. Second game is from California. The ambiance is so loud I cannot hear the commentators.
Same network, same ordinary Sony stereo tv. Delivered by Comcast.

Sunday it was CBS.

So, what are they doing after the truck to change the mix? If a TV exec was listening at my house, someone would be unemployed for sure.


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