M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Justice C. Bigler

Justice C. Bigler

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Jan 11, 2011
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Tulsa, OK
www.justicebigler.com
Is it possible to use three Yamaha SB168-ES interfaces with an M7CL-48ES and a PM5D-RH? I want to use the M7CL-ES as a monitor console with the SB168-ESs providing the A/D and then send the input channels to the PM5D at FOH via ethernet. This is to get around having to use an analog split for FOH and monitors. In this set up, do does each console have gain control over it's own input channels? How many of the MY16-ES64 card do I need in the PM5D to get all 48 channels?
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Justice C. Bigler said:
Is it possible to use three Yamaha SB168-ES interfaces with an M7CL-48ES and a PM5D-RH? I want to use the M7CL-ES as a monitor console with the SB168-ESs providing the A/D and then send the input channels to the PM5D at FOH via ethernet. This is to get around having to use an analog split for FOH and monitors. In this set up, do does each console have gain control over it's own input channels? How many of the MY16-ES64 card do I need in the PM5D to get all 48 channels?
Click to expand...

Yes it is possible. I was part of an install that did 3 SB168s going to a M7CL, a PM5D (non RH), Ethersound card in a Mac Pro multitrack recording, and an 01V96. It was a ring configuration network. The M7 and PM5D both had a M16ES64 card each with 2 MY-16EX cards each to get the 48 channels to the two boards. The 01V96 had 1 M16ES64 card that received stems from the PM5D to make a mix for broadcast. This was an install at a church so the head amp was controlled from the PM5D at FOH due to there being events and services that only needed 1 mixer. The monitor console (M7) used the attenuator found in the EQ section of each channel instead of headamp control. Obviously this took a little bit of programing on the Ethersound side. Hope this helps.

edit for wording.
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

So it's possible. How clunky is it? More trouble than just hooking everything up with an analog split? Did you have to daisy chain the MY16-ES cards like they show on the Yamaha CA website?

Would it be possible to use the MY16-AUD Dante card by Audinate instead and use a router in a star network?
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Justice C. Bigler said:
So it's possible. How clunky is it? More trouble than just hooking everything up with an analog split? Did you have to daisy chain the MY16-ES cards like they show on the Yamaha CA website?

Would it be possible to use the MY16-AUD Dante card by Audinate instead and use a router in a star network?
Click to expand...

Because this was an install, it was worth doing the legwork to make everything work right. It took a long time to make everything work correctly (a few days), but now it has been working flawlessly for a few years. If this was a temporary setup, I would have just wanted an analog split and been done. As far as I know, its not 'clunky' in the sense that it always works. One note, is that all mixers have to be on for the system to work as a ring configuration. So, if it was a small event with just a speaker talking, all units had to be running to let Ethersound make its loop. Also, the FOH PM5D sent its stereo mix to the amp room via AES, not through the stage boxes, since it was going to a lake processor with digital inputs.

I don't know anything about the Dante card, so I can't help you there.

Hope that helps.
 
A couple of things.
All
MY16 cards only can have 16 channels. So, to get 48 you need 3 cards and 3 slots. I don't know how many slots a M7CL has.

Dante can route to multiple consoles but as above, each slot on a Yamaha desk only does 16ch so after putting in 3 Dante cards you may not have slots left for the stage boxes.

Also, as far as I know, only one console has control of the remote box trims.
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Ok, it's appears that I can get an M7CL-48ES, 3 of the SB168ES stage boxes, the MY16-ES64 and two of the MY-16EX cards for a fair amount less than a 48 channel analog split (and the standard M7CL-48). According to my rep, I can connect everything via a standard router, and even have a couple of ports left for recording or broadcast consoles. Any holes in this argument? I know that I still have to give one console or the other control over the analog gain structure (likely the monitor console), but I can live with that.

A few questions further, 1) what is a good router for use with Ethersound (can I use a wireless router and also and use the Stage Mix app with an iPad also)?
2) What is a good shielded twisted pair Cat5e cable to use with live stage applications?
3) are there other consoles (i.e. non Yamaha) that I can connect via Ethersound?
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Justice C. Bigler said:
Ok, it's appears that I can get an M7CL-48ES, 3 of the SB168ES stage boxes, the MY16-ES64 and two of the MY-16EX cards for a fair amount less than a 48 channel analog split (and the standard M7CL-48). According to my rep, I can connect everything via a standard router, and even have a couple of ports left for recording or broadcast consoles. Any holes in this argument? I know that I still have to give one console or the other control over the analog gain structure (likely the monitor console), but I can live with that.

A few questions further, 1) what is a good router for use with Ethersound (can I use a wireless router and also and use the Stage Mix app with an iPad also)?
2) What is a good shielded twisted pair Cat5e cable to use with live stage applications?
3) are there other consoles (i.e. non Yamaha) that I can connect via Ethersound?
Click to expand...

1. I would not go so far as to say a "standard router" will work at all. You do NOT want to bet a $20k system of consoles on a $100 router from Best Buy. Also, from what I remember, Yamaha consoles have to use static IPs; so a router (with its implied DHCP server) is completely unnecessary. I'd strongly recommend a gigabit-capable professional switch like the HP Procurve series. With that you could easily use a real access point and run wireless.

2. You do NOT want shielded cat5 for this use. Ethernet calls for Unshielded Twisted Pair (UTP) cable; I'd recommend the CBI heavy-duty portable Cat5e cable, it's been great for me and eliminated the packet errors that the ProCo Dcat5 was giving me.

3. All the iLive products can connect via Ethersound.
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Silas Pradetto said:
2. You do NOT want shielded cat5 for this use. Ethernet calls for Unshielded Twisted Pair (UTP) cable; I'd recommend the CBI heavy-duty portable Cat5e cable, it's been great for me and eliminated the packet errors that the ProCo Dcat5 was giving me.
Click to expand...

According to Yamaha's Digital Audio Systems Design Guide:
*Shielded Twisted Pair (STP) cables The LAN cables generally referred to as Ethernet cables come in two different types — namely, UTP (twisted pair) and STP
(shielded twisted pair). Shielded twisted pair cables protect signals from external noise, thus allowing faster communication speeds. As these cables feature a
built-in shield, furthermore, the devices and systems connected using them must be grounded. We recommend that STP-type, straight LAN cables of Cat5 or better
be used with the MY16-EX.
Click to expand...
(page 9, under MY-16EX section)

I assumed that it went without saying, that I meant any standard professional grade router, but it looks like a switch will work just as well. Not going to buy a D-Link switch from Wal-mart for $25 for this.
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Justice C. Bigler said:
Ok, it's appears that I can get an M7CL-48ES, 3 of the SB168ES stage boxes, the MY16-ES64 and two of the MY-16EX cards for a fair amount less than a 48 channel analog split (and the standard M7CL-48). According to my rep, I can connect everything via a standard router, and even have a couple of ports left for recording or broadcast consoles. Any holes in this argument? I know that I still have to give one console or the other control over the analog gain structure (likely the monitor console), but I can live with that.

A few questions further, 1) what is a good router for use with Ethersound (can I use a wireless router and also and use the Stage Mix app with an iPad also)?
2) What is a good shielded twisted pair Cat5e cable to use with live stage applications?
3) are there other consoles (i.e. non Yamaha) that I can connect via Ethersound?
Click to expand...


EtherSound can connect to a standard router or switch, but there are some things to keep in mind. EtherSound can travel up to 100M between points over CAT5e. If you need to extend that distance up to another 100M and want to use copper, you can place a switch in between the two end points. As long as only 2 EtherSound devices are connected to the switch, EtherSound has no idea it is there and will behave as usual. As soon as you connect a 3rd Ethersound device to the switch, EtherSound notes that a switch is in the network and bi-directional audio is lost between the items on each side of the switch. So, if you have a room full of EtherSound compatible amps, you can place a switch in the room and connect each amp to the switch instead of daisy chaining them together. Now you don't have to turn on all of the amps, just to use one of them. But, if you have a console and a couple stageboxes, bi-directional audio will be necessary if your inputs and outputs are traveling over EtherSound.

You can get around this limitation by creating VLANs and daisy chaining through the VLAN's. But that may be more complication than you need for this project. The Auvitran AVM500-ES Network Matrix is the only device that I am aware of which allows switch like behavior with bi-directional audio straight out of the box. There could be others out there, I just have not used them.


Leland
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Justice C. Bigler said:
Ok, it's appears that I can get an M7CL-48ES, 3 of the SB168ES stage boxes, the MY16-ES64 and two of the MY-16EX cards for a fair amount less than a 48 channel analog split (and the standard M7CL-48).
Click to expand...

Aren't the stage boxes about $4000 each? Three of them would be more than the cost of a clean used M7CL-48. What analog splitter costs as much as an M7CL-48-ES surface?
 
Re: M7CL-48ES and SB168-ES with PM5D-RH

Justice C. Bigler said:
Well, since I started this thread...almost 3 years ago now...I will add the update that we bailed on Ethersound. And bought a CL5 and some MY16-AUD cards for our PM5Ds. Dante is a much better solution than Ethersound. :twisted:
Click to expand...

When I first started doing my research into the different digital protocols around a year ago, I started with MADI, then after that I moved onto ADAT and AES, checked into some of what Aviom did and then stumbled across EtherSound. I'll be honest, I read a bit and all I could think was how underwhelming it was. Next up was Dante and I'll be honest - I'm amazed anything is still ES over Dante.
 
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