Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

J

James Drake

Freshman
Jul 17, 2012
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In the world of coporate audio, it seems to me that often gear dedigned for music is repurposed simply because that is what is available.

i'm sure many have fought with trying to get enough level before feedback out of tie mics with event organisers ever present asking not to see 'big black ugly boxes'!

I have often liked to try the approach of using many small speakers closer to the audience, but has anyone ever done this?

for example, every chair has a speaker mounted designed to cover say 5 people sitting behind it.

are there any suitable products out there? What could be the challenges facing this concept?
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

James Drake said:
In the world of coporate audio, it seems to me that often gear dedigned for music is repurposed simply because that is what is available.

i'm sure many have fought with trying to get enough level before feedback out of tie mics with event organisers ever present asking not to see 'big black ugly boxes'!

I have often liked to try the approach of using many small speakers closer to the audience, but has anyone ever done this?

for example, every chair has a speaker mounted designed to cover say 5 people sitting behind it.

are there any suitable products out there? What could be the challenges facing this concept?
Click to expand...
The general concept has been used in the House of Worship market via pew back systems with small speakers integrated into the backs of the pews to cover those seated in the direct coverage of the speakers. The challenges include that it requires many speakers with lots of associated wiring that have to be integrated into the furniture and also requires planning for usually numerous delay zones to maintain localization. Because they usually involve small speakers in small enclosures, such systems are also typically pretty limited to speech reinforcement.
 
James,

I have found this works great in these sorts of high feedback environments. No need for a hundred speakers, but adding in a few delay lines in a room that doesn't otherwise need them reduces the output requirements of the speakers closest to the talent. This in turn reduced bleed into their mics, and sometimes 6dB is the difference between life and death.
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

yes, i am looking to amplify speech.

so lets say the challenges are cabling and implementing delay.

what products are out there that could be suitable?

in churches in the UK i have often seen what look like tiny line arrays fixed to stone columns with stone coloured fabric covering them. always assumed these were custom made by a christian acoustics company or something?

never seen anything in the back of pews, this would be most interesting for me.
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

If they don't anymore, the X-Factor live shows here in the UK certainly used to do just this. Arrays in the air for the music, judges lectern mics via lots of small (JBL Control 1?) speakers dotted around the audience area. It can be very effective.

Not to mention your direct:reverberant sound ratio improves dramatically
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

Chris Johnson said:
If they don't anymore, the X-Factor live shows here in the UK certainly used to do just this. Arrays in the air for the music, judges lectern mics via lots of small (JBL Control 1?) speakers dotted around the audience area. It can be very effective.

Not to mention your direct:reverberant sound ratio improves dramatically
Click to expand...

interesting.

i did one x factor show some time ago when they needed extra stuff for a big band and string section. but don't remember looking in the audience area.

yeah, JBL control 1 speakers i guess would be an option. would be interesting to know their cabling solution (and delays if any?)

i wonder if there is anything in fact a bit slimmer than the jbl?
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

James Drake said:
what products are out there that could be suitable?

in churches in the UK i have often seen what look like tiny line arrays fixed to stone columns with stone coloured fabric covering them. always assumed these were custom made by a christian acoustics company or something?
Click to expand...

I've seen omniline used for this, but it's been with a slightly more conventional type of PA.

FIRST MARTIN AUDIO OMNILINE® ARRAY INSTALLED IN MAGHERALIN CHURCH | The Wire on SVConline

Chris
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

Bennett Prescott said:
James,

I have found this works great in these sorts of high feedback environments. No need for a hundred speakers, but adding in a few delay lines in a room that doesn't otherwise need them reduces the output requirements of the speakers closest to the talent. This in turn reduced bleed into their mics, and sometimes 6dB is the difference between life and death.
Click to expand...

Yep I dont think you need speakers mounted to chairs for every 5 people. However if you can create zones, or cover each "section" with a pair of speakers it will help tremendously. However you want to break it up.
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

In the past I have used very small speakers just to cover the first 5 or 6 rows, some thing like the EV s40, SX80, EAW jf80. Then put the real PA behind those rows and run at higher levels. This works very well.
I have not tried it but if I were to do a buch of small speakers per row I would probably run a 25V or 70V system.

More recently I saw K-array: at a trade show. Looks interesting. They have some speakers the size of a candy bar. They also have some flexible speakers. Any one use them in the wiled yet?
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

Tom Bourke said:
In the past I have used very small speakers just to cover the first 5 or 6 rows, some thing like the EV s40, SX80, EAW jf80. Then put the real PA behind those rows and run at higher levels. This works very well.
I have not tried it but if I were to do a buch of small speakers per row I would probably run a 25V or 70V system.

More recently I saw K-array: at a trade show. Looks interesting. They have some speakers the size of a candy bar. They also have some flexible speakers. Any one use them in the wiled yet?
Click to expand...

For a recent Broadway show we purchased a few K-array KZ10s for foldback in a moving set piece. The staging of the piece was eventually modified in such a way that the local foldback was unnecessary so they were cut. Because of this we never installed them or tested them in a performance/rehearsal situation. We did eventually pull them out of a drawer and listened to them. The output is very limited and I don't think you would be able to use them for anything other than speech with any kind of fidelity. I think they would do nicely for hidden near-field foldback but that's about it. If you aren't worried about seeing the loudspeaker I would use just about anything else. YMMV

Attached is an example of these speakers out in the world. They are about the size of Kit-Kat bars and are mounted in the chair horizontally just to the left and right of her head.
 

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Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

I'll throw K-Array's around for light to moderate playback applications, but I've never been impressed with them for corporate/rock & roll/anything.

For speech applications I would look at L-Acoustics 5XT. I would probably shove one of their bigger coaxial point source boxes near the stage so that there can be more power coming from the source, but with a few lines of delay the 5XTs are killer little corporate boxes.
 
Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

I have heard the Meyer MM-4, and it is quite impressive for its extremely compact size (4" driver). It needs their MM4CEU DSP to drive it (it does freq and phase optimization and driver protection sense lines). Not sure if that works with your budget. They are 16ohm....

I have run as many as 8 delay boxes before (usually SOS product du jour) and it has been a successful way to deal with difficult gain before feedback situations, such as multiple lav mics and similar in harsh acoustic environments or where I needed massively long throw. It does take considerable extra time however to properly align delays etc, it is not ideal for run and gun type applications.
 
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Re: Many smaller speakers, closer to the audience

James Drake said:
in churches in the UK i have often seen what look like tiny line arrays fixed to stone columns with stone coloured fabric covering them. always assumed these were custom made by a christian acoustics company or something?
Click to expand...

I know exactly what you mean, these are not uncommon in C of E churches in my experience, where only speech during the service is amplified (ie with switches or similar to avoid the Vicar's voice being heard while hymns are sung). In the church my Mam attends they have some Shure branded little line arrays with covers matched to the stone pillars they're attached to, along with a Shure mixer and various disguised mics in the areas the minister or anyone reading might stand.

This particular system was fitted over 20 years ago, and I recall at the time thinking they looked like little VotT columns I'd seen in old footage of bands from the '60s. I also recall Durham cathedral having several of something similar, presumably with appropriate delay as I don't recall intelligibility issues when sat near the back.

I'm always amused when folks here are discussing large, music-oriented kit installed in churches - just the sight of such would frighten the life out of the old dears who make up the majority of our local congregation, where all that's changed in 50 years is the average age has got older and their hearing poorer.
 
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