Matrix's on LS9-32

[BJ James]

I'm playing around on my LS9 setting up a show for this weekend. I sometimes use center fills, and have always used an aux(Mix) for that.
A visiting BE came through a few weeks ago who wanted it set up to do center fills on matrix- it's how it was on his show file. I don't get the advantage of matrix over a mix for this purpose, but I'm open to learning why. If I'm understanding this correctly a Matrix takes variable levels from an aux or a mix of aux's (or Mix's)and sends out to whatever flavour of output you select...lets say Omni 9 for Matrix 1. So why wouldn't I take a Mix instead, say Mix 9, and use SOF to create my center fill mix, and out it to Omni 9? The only thing I can think of, is if you were out of Aux's, you could hobble a CF mix together using aux's out to the matrix.
I guess I need a short lesson on the use of Matrix's. The manual does not go into much detail.
Thanks,
BJ

 

[Steve Ferreira]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

I like to send to the Matrix from the Master bus. I don't have to worry about what is too loud/soft and adjust many channels on an aux. Let's you focus more on the mix, and if the mains sound good so will the center fills because it's getting the same signal sent from the mix.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

I like to send to the Matrix from the Master bus. I don't have to worry about what is too loud/soft and adjust many channels on an aux.

Indeed. You can't hear the fills, properly setup fills should be part of the mains PA. No reason to worry about whether you remembered to mix that channel in or not... Would you set up an aux for your delay towers? Under balcony fills?

 

[Jake Scudder]

Re: Matrices on LS9-32

I'm playing around on my LS9 setting up a show for this weekend. I sometimes use center fills, and have always used an aux(Mix) for that.
A visiting BE came through a few weeks ago who wanted it set up to do center fills on matrix- it's how it was on his show file. I don't get the advantage of matrix over a mix for this purpose, but I'm open to learning why. If I'm understanding this correctly a Matrix takes variable levels from an aux or a mix of aux's (or Mix's)and sends out to whatever flavour of output you select...lets say Omni 9 for Matrix 1. So why wouldn't I take a Mix instead, say Mix 9, and use SOF to create my center fill mix, and out it to Omni 9? The only thing I can think of, is if you were out of Aux's, you could hobble a CF mix together using aux's out to the matrix.
I guess I need a short lesson on the use of Matrix's. The manual does not go into much detail.
Thanks,
BJ

First off . . . matrices.

Now that that's out of the way . . .

If you have very few inputs and don't need all other outputs then there is probably no real advantage. If, however, you are using many outputs and creating many distinct zones matrix outputs become very valuable. Let's say you have several groups (or fixed mix outputs in Yamaha speak) like Vocals, Guitars, Keys, Horns, Drums, Playback. Now let's say you want to set up a center fill. Now all you need to do is dial in a desired mix of these stems instead of dialing in each individual input. Maybe you want to put vocals and keys in the center fill but not the drums and guitars. Now you are only turning two knobs. What if you dial in the drums but decide you want 5 dB less after listening for a bit? You only have to adjust one send when using a group to send to a matrix instead of backing off each individual drum mic.

The only downside to using a matrix is that you typically are required to route to a bus or aux before you hit the matrix. This is not the case with many new digital consoles, however. I know you can route directly from an input to a matrix output on the M7CL. I'm not sure about the LS9.

For me, it's not an option. We simply wouldn't have enough outputs if we didn't take advantage of matrix mixing. In fact we only send stems out of the Profile (Principle Vox, Ensemble Vox, Verb Stems, Band L/R, etc) and all of our matrix mixing is done in LCS. Technically we have a 64 input and 50 output matrix, although many of those inputs are Wild Tracks playback and Space Map inputs for spatial imaging of sound effects. Clearly a typical rock and roll gig doesn't require this level of routing flexibility but I would probably still opt for using matrix outputs because I find it to be a much more flexible workflow.

 

[Steve Ferreira]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

Indeed. You can't hear the fills, properly setup fills should be part of the mains PA. No reason to worry about whether you remembered to mix that channel in or not... Would you set up an aux for your delay towers? Under balcony fills?

I use Matrices also for delays....Helps when you have a D1 and use the IPC's for channel processing, but that's a different topic.

 

[Tim Weaver]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

I'll pile on here with a little simpler explanation.

I recently did a show in an odd shaped "bowl" venue. I used an LS9 at FOH. I needed to have the following feeds. Left, Right, Sub, center fill, left outside fill, right outside fill. How would you have achieved this using mixes? You would have to make a separate mix for each section and then if anything changes you have to touch up the mix for each.

I used Matrices 1 through 6. I fed each one from the main L/R buss. After balancing levels and EQ'ing to taste, all I had to do was ride the main fader up for more volume and down for less. Each matrix tracked those changes and I had a "system" instead of a handful of separate feeds.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

Indeed. You can't hear the fills, properly setup fills should be part of the mains PA. No reason to worry about whether you remembered to mix that channel in or not... Would you set up an aux for your delay towers? Under balcony fills?

Like Jake said: Sometimes you just want vocals and keyboards in the front fills as everything is already too loud in the area covered by the front fills, anyway. A delay send is another matter entirely as it's there to "refresh" the entire sound image that's coming from stage.

I say: L/R masters to matrix for outfills and delay systems, free choice of groups/buses to the front fills matrix. Big festival situation where there is no sound checking and no chance to walk the venue; all or nothing, go with L/R to front fills.

 

[Lee Dickinson]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

"so why not just patch your omni for the fills right to the L/R mix?"

Because you might want to put some extra stuff in there, like guitars or cymbols, that aren't big in the l/r. So you can get your l/r mix in there, then add in guitars either individually or from some other mix.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

"so why not just patch your omni for the fills right to the L/R mix?"

Because you might want to put some extra stuff in there, like guitars or cymbols, that aren't big in the l/r. So you can get your l/r mix in there, then add in guitars either individually or from some other mix.

+1, especially for more complex shows. Also useful for theatrical gigs, where you may have significantly more GBF in the fills than in the mains.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

"so why not just patch your omni for the fills right to the L/R mix?"

Because you might want to put some extra stuff in there, like guitars or cymbols, that aren't big in the l/r. So you can get your l/r mix in there, then add in guitars either individually or from some other mix.

I know you can assign individual channels to matrices on a Yamaha M7CL. Anyone know if this is fixed-level assignment or variable per channel?

What other mixers can do this?

Also, if you put L/R into a matrix and add in individual channels that are also present in the L/R mix: How do you avoid comb filtering due to bus processing latency?

 

[BJ James]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

OK, thanks for the explanations everyone. So in my case for this upcoming job, I am using a single center fill that will likely only need vocals and acoustic in it.
Check my math: I would assign the desired channels to a post fader fixed mix(on LS9 I believe they have to be in pairs) so lets say Mix's 11&12, then that would get routed to Matrix 1, and output to an unused omni. I'm not in front of the desk now to confirm this.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

OK, thanks for the explanations everyone. So in my case for this upcoming job, I am using a single center fill that will likely only need vocals and acoustic in it.
Check my math: I would assign the desired channels to a post fader fixed mix(on LS9 I believe they have to be in pairs) so lets say Mix's 11&12, then that would get routed to Matrix 1, and output to an unused omni. I'm not in front of the desk now to confirm this.

I usually try to route all channels to one of the fixed-level mixes/buses/groups (many names for same thing). This is for mix reasons, it allows me to compress groups of instruments as well as easily raising and lowering entire groups of instruments without screwing with the channel fader relationships. I also like to feed the FX returns into groups, too. These groups are all fed to the master bus. For me, it makes sense to feed front fills from a matrix, and just put a little into the matrix from the buses that I would like to have in the front fills. This way, channel fader relationships, compression and FX are all present in the front-fills in the same way it sound to me from the mains, and I can trust roughly how the front fill mix sounds, even if I can't run up front to check it out.

With your acoustic it might get a little more interesting: I usually would not want to burn a group just for one acoustic guitar, I usually chuck it into a guitar group along with the electrics - and I don't want those in the front fills.

Unless you have a mixer that allows you to send individual channels to a matrix (very rare) you won't be able to get the acoustic to the front-fills without burning a whole group for that one channel.

In cases like this, I might set up a post-fader aux mix for feeding the front-fills and pull up what I need from there. Or I would just sacrifice a group/bus for the acoustic and do it the other way.

Hope this makes sense!

 

[BJ James]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

What would the disadvantage be of assigning the acoustic guitars to the vocal "mix"?

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

What would the disadvantage be of assigning the acoustic guitars to the vocal "mix"?

It depends on how you mix and style of music, I suppose. Let's say that you really want to raise the vocals up high in the mix for a chorus, the acoustic might stick out like a sore thumb. Or if you have some heavy compression going on in the vocal group, and you raise the guitar for a solo portion, and the vocal bus compressor just fights it right back down.

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Matrix's on LS9-32

I know you can assign individual channels to matrices on a Yamaha M7CL. Anyone know if this is fixed-level assignment or variable per channel?

It's variable per channel... "super auxes", basically. But only the M7CL does this, the LS9 does not.

Good question about latency from the different paths... probably you would get combfiltering. I do know that patching in a graphic adds a little extra time.