I am looking for a pair of A level mics for use primarily on grand piano and acoustic guitar. Exceptional sound, gain before feedback and rider acceptance are all of concern. I am currently looking at AKG C451, Neumann KM184, Sennheiser MKH8040. Any real world experience and thoughts would be welcome. TIA.
Mics for acoustic instruments
- Thread starter Steve Payne
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Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
I don't have enough high level experience with this to really answer your question, but I will say that from what my experience has been so far, it makes a gigantic difference whether or not you're miking it for use as a solo instrument. So, are we talking concert pianist style things, or with a band?
I don't have enough high level experience with this to really answer your question, but I will say that from what my experience has been so far, it makes a gigantic difference whether or not you're miking it for use as a solo instrument. So, are we talking concert pianist style things, or with a band?
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Solo or combo type band. I would not bother to pull these mics out for a rock level environment. Thanks for the question.
Solo or combo type band. I would not bother to pull these mics out for a rock level environment. Thanks for the question.
Mics for acoustic instruments
Two combinations that have worked well for micing the grand piano in my venue are: a pair of Shure SM27, and Sennheiser 914s combined with a 912 on the soundboard.
The Sennheiser combo worked great because you can send the 912 to the piano wedge without having to worry about feedback.
I don 't have any experience with the Sennheiser you mention, but I mention my experience because I think a good strategy is to buy some mics that you like the tone of then supplement them with boundary mics for when the extra GBF is needed.
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Two combinations that have worked well for micing the grand piano in my venue are: a pair of Shure SM27, and Sennheiser 914s combined with a 912 on the soundboard.
The Sennheiser combo worked great because you can send the 912 to the piano wedge without having to worry about feedback.
I don 't have any experience with the Sennheiser you mention, but I mention my experience because I think a good strategy is to buy some mics that you like the tone of then supplement them with boundary mics for when the extra GBF is needed.
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Once you are into that class of microphone, the quality of the rest of the system (especially loudspeakers) and microphone placement become much bigger factors than the microphone. Is this for acoustic reinforcement (e.g. bigger venue than the instrument can fill on its own, more "traditional" styles), or clear amplification? Are you set on an SDC, or are you open to LDCs as well?
Once you are into that class of microphone, the quality of the rest of the system (especially loudspeakers) and microphone placement become much bigger factors than the microphone. Is this for acoustic reinforcement (e.g. bigger venue than the instrument can fill on its own, more "traditional" styles), or clear amplification? Are you set on an SDC, or are you open to LDCs as well?
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Not to purposefully muddy the waters but the earthwork sdcs are worth checking out as well.
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Not to purposefully muddy the waters but the earthwork sdcs are worth checking out as well.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Rob,
I have all of the infrastructure to take full advantage of extremely high quality microphones carefully placed. Venues would vary from 800 cap hotel ballroom to 3200 seat theaters to 5000+ sheds. I am set on SDCs.
Rob,
I have all of the infrastructure to take full advantage of extremely high quality microphones carefully placed. Venues would vary from 800 cap hotel ballroom to 3200 seat theaters to 5000+ sheds. I am set on SDCs.
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Thanks Aaron, I'll look into the 4099. I have a couple of dpa d:fine mics that are very impressive.
Thanks Aaron, I'll look into the 4099. I have a couple of dpa d:fine mics that are very impressive.
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
I have seen people try everything and return to 2 x 414 on grand piano. (I have tried the Earthworks system on tour in multiple pianos in multiple venues. Closed, open, half-stick). Just had Rufus Wainright through my PAC and his Russian LDC's weren't cooperating with our Steinway D. Our power and split scheme is trouble-free. We went to 414s and all was well. (His FOH abandoned Earthworks some time ago).
Acoustic guitar may be easier. 451 is a great starting point, but depending on player I've heard great results from lots of stuff: Beyer 201, SM81, 414, Senheiser and AT SDCs, etc.
Remember this is only the capture point in a long chain of sound influencers. Give me a low RT60 hall with a high headroom, high resolution PA and I can simply push faders on an entirely SM57 mic'd stage (with HPFs). Exaggerating of course...
I have seen people try everything and return to 2 x 414 on grand piano. (I have tried the Earthworks system on tour in multiple pianos in multiple venues. Closed, open, half-stick). Just had Rufus Wainright through my PAC and his Russian LDC's weren't cooperating with our Steinway D. Our power and split scheme is trouble-free. We went to 414s and all was well. (His FOH abandoned Earthworks some time ago).
Acoustic guitar may be easier. 451 is a great starting point, but depending on player I've heard great results from lots of stuff: Beyer 201, SM81, 414, Senheiser and AT SDCs, etc.
Remember this is only the capture point in a long chain of sound influencers. Give me a low RT60 hall with a high headroom, high resolution PA and I can simply push faders on an entirely SM57 mic'd stage (with HPFs). Exaggerating of course...
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
I use DPA 4099's in the piano and on acoustic instruments on tour. For piano they would certainly be my recommendation. The magnetic mounts are great, and I rarely need to eq the channels. For guitar, however, the musician has to be willing to let you clip a 4099 onto the instrument, and he loses the ability to work the mic. If those are not concerns, then the 4099 are the best mics I have found that let you get decent GBF in monitors, sound fantastic, and aren't terribly expensive.
I use DPA 4099's in the piano and on acoustic instruments on tour. For piano they would certainly be my recommendation. The magnetic mounts are great, and I rarely need to eq the channels. For guitar, however, the musician has to be willing to let you clip a 4099 onto the instrument, and he loses the ability to work the mic. If those are not concerns, then the 4099 are the best mics I have found that let you get decent GBF in monitors, sound fantastic, and aren't terribly expensive.
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Steve, i've used all these mics through high quality systems and they all can sound very good. If i had to choose a favorite, i'd have to go with the Neumann, because it seems to just work well on anything and the smaller size can sometimes be an advantage. Neumann also has a little more cachet than AKG and Sennheiser with people who know just enough to be dangerous [often also known as clients
].
The DPA 4099 is an excellent sounding mic and you can get a wide array of mounting pieces for it. It sounds especially nice on acoustic guitar. The problem i've had is that a lot of the players i've worked with that would benefit from such a mic don't want anything mounted on their instrument. Think classical situations and the like. Plus most classical situations are stationary and a mic on a stand is perfectly acceptable. And the mounts can be a little fiddly. I feel like the 4099 series is ideal for an artist [or his/her BE] to buy and travel with, but maybe not as a good a choice for a rental house.
I have to concur with the post above WRT to piano, however. I've tried all kinds of combinations in all kinds of settings, but i always come back to two tried and true methods. For FOH, two 414's on a tape bridge, and for Monitors [or more rock and roll environments] one SM57 crammed into the soundboard hole using whatever t-shirt or foam you can find. It might not be pretty or sexy, but it works.
Steve, i've used all these mics through high quality systems and they all can sound very good. If i had to choose a favorite, i'd have to go with the Neumann, because it seems to just work well on anything and the smaller size can sometimes be an advantage. Neumann also has a little more cachet than AKG and Sennheiser with people who know just enough to be dangerous [often also known as clients
].The DPA 4099 is an excellent sounding mic and you can get a wide array of mounting pieces for it. It sounds especially nice on acoustic guitar. The problem i've had is that a lot of the players i've worked with that would benefit from such a mic don't want anything mounted on their instrument. Think classical situations and the like. Plus most classical situations are stationary and a mic on a stand is perfectly acceptable. And the mounts can be a little fiddly. I feel like the 4099 series is ideal for an artist [or his/her BE] to buy and travel with, but maybe not as a good a choice for a rental house.
I have to concur with the post above WRT to piano, however. I've tried all kinds of combinations in all kinds of settings, but i always come back to two tried and true methods. For FOH, two 414's on a tape bridge, and for Monitors [or more rock and roll environments] one SM57 crammed into the soundboard hole using whatever t-shirt or foam you can find. It might not be pretty or sexy, but it works.
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Although Neumanns can sound excellent, my experience with their vocal condensers is that after a while of use, no two have the same frequency response, don't know if that same problem holds true with the KM184.
I've sworn off Sennheiser after the last pair of MD421 purchased died after less than a half dozen gigs in front of horns, just out of the 1 year warranty period, and Sennheiser wanted almost the same price as new to fix them.
Hey, if anyone is looking for a Helpinstill piano sensor system, the best sounding way to get pianos above loud bands, I'd be willing to let mine go. The Helpinstill with a SDC for a bit of "air" on top (or when the band would stop being too loud) was always my favorite, though I used to also have some Barcus Berry piano transducers to fulfill riders.
Art
Around two decades ago, when I still had decent hearing and could hear subtle differences, I auditioned a new AKG C451 (which was my SDC mic of choice for the 15 years prior) to several other small diaphragm mics, and preferred the Audio Technica AT-37. I have been using them ever since on anything from pianos, guitars, drums and percussion, even choirs and orchestras. They work well on everything but kick drums, which can be loud enough to overload them. I bought a pair in 1994, another pair sometime around 2000. The last time I measured their response (2012 IIRC) their response still were very close, much closer than the "babied" C451s I had tested at EV. Unfortunately, the AT37 are too inexpensive to have garnered snob appeal, but I have never had anyone complain about their sound.
Although Neumanns can sound excellent, my experience with their vocal condensers is that after a while of use, no two have the same frequency response, don't know if that same problem holds true with the KM184.
I've sworn off Sennheiser after the last pair of MD421 purchased died after less than a half dozen gigs in front of horns, just out of the 1 year warranty period, and Sennheiser wanted almost the same price as new to fix them.
Hey, if anyone is looking for a Helpinstill piano sensor system, the best sounding way to get pianos above loud bands, I'd be willing to let mine go. The Helpinstill with a SDC for a bit of "air" on top (or when the band would stop being too loud) was always my favorite, though I used to also have some Barcus Berry piano transducers to fulfill riders.
Art
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Royer 121 (Live Version) is very cool. It's darker sounding, but handles HF boosts brilliantly. Sounds great on guitars and guitar amps too, and just about everything else.
It also comes with a lifetime warranty. Not particularly inexpensive, but you can use it for many applications.
Lots of the other suggestions are great too, just another option to consider that may have a wider usefulness.
Royer 121 (Live Version) is very cool. It's darker sounding, but handles HF boosts brilliantly. Sounds great on guitars and guitar amps too, and just about everything else.
It also comes with a lifetime warranty. Not particularly inexpensive, but you can use it for many applications.
Lots of the other suggestions are great too, just another option to consider that may have a wider usefulness.
Re: Mics for acoustic instruments
Thanks to all for the excellent input. I an very grateful. We are going to auction some of the mentioned mics and see what looks like the best choice for us. All the best.
Thanks to all for the excellent input. I an very grateful. We are going to auction some of the mentioned mics and see what looks like the best choice for us. All the best.