Missing Link?

John Chiara

John Chiara

Senior
Jan 11, 2011
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Troy, NY
I see mostly 2 scenarios on the local/regional level in my area. Either FOH speakers are 2 way trap cabs or 2-5 small line array cabinets stacked up. I am a big proponent of 3 way mid-hi cabinets for almost any live music with vocal event. Most new speaker lines from manufacturers also seem to mostly follow this pattern. At the same time I have noticed the overall intelligibility of small to mid sized setups. Anyone else think this is not such a great thing?
 
Re: Missing Link?

John Chiara said:
I see mostly 2 scenarios on the local/regional level in my area. Either FOH speakers are 2 way trap cabs or 2-5 small line array cabinets stacked up. I am a big proponent of 3 way mid-hi cabinets for almost any live music with vocal event. Most new speaker lines from manufacturers also seem to mostly follow this pattern. At the same time I have noticed the overall intelligibility of small to mid sized setups. Anyone else think this is not such a great thing?
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To many people if the speaker noise it is fine. They don't know what good sound is-because they never hear it.

It is really surprising how much bad audio passes as even being acceptable.

And this even goes into high dollar installs. Poor coverage-bad sound-but yet SOMEBODY said "That is good-here is your check-job well done".

As long as people simply "accept it" then this trend will continue. And as long as gear keeps getting cheaper and cheaper-then more and more less qualified people will enter the field.

I got a couple of old (late 70's early 80's) Music Emporium catalogs to add to my collection recently. Gear was a lot more expensive back then-especially consoles. That alone helped to keep people who weren't serious away.
 
Re: Missing Link?

I think many people go for SPL and "mega watts" styling and media hype over actual sound quality. If it gets loud, sounds eeeh half good, and pays for itself then often its what people go for. There have been several newer three way options, and all have gotten excellent reviews over comparable two ways so you arent alone. Im using my EV QRX153s and I LOVE them. As a sound provider I want my service to stand out above anyone else's service. I believe that my 3 way boxes along with other things help me accomplish that. I suppose we will see more 3 way portable boxes soon but they still might be out of the price range for some weekend warriors.
 
Re: Missing Link?

I think complaining about driver arrangements is like complaining about 4 cylinder vs 8 cylinder cars. They can both make the same power, they just do it different ways.

I think, by far, the most overlooked thing in sound reinforcement is competence! Yes, the guys setting up the rigs have little to no idea what they're doing. A bit of time spent designing a system to cover a venue properly, tuned and aligned, is going to sound worlds and universes better than a pile of speakers thrown next to a stage with an engineer that doesn't know how to EQ anything.

That's my opinion anyway. Maybe I'm a pessimist?
 
Re: Missing Link?

Silas Pradetto said:
I think complaining about driver arrangements is like complaining about 4 cylinder vs 8 cylinder cars. They can both make the same power, they just do it different ways.

I think, by far, the most overlooked thing in sound reinforcement is competence! Yes, the guys setting up the rigs have little to no idea what they're doing. A bit of time spent designing a system to cover a venue properly, tuned and aligned, is going to sound worlds and universes better than a pile of speakers thrown next to a stage with an engineer that doesn't know how to EQ anything.

That's my opinion anyway. Maybe I'm a pessimist?
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That goes without saying... However...SAYING that in mixed company causes a whole variety of hornet's nests to be stirred up! I am finding this business one of the hardest in many lower level applications to actually tell the truth and not be viewed as an instigator. I am sure you know that half the small setups you see could be made 100% better in 5 minutes if the actual situation could be discussed honestly.
 
Re: Missing Link?

John Chiara said:
That goes without saying... However...SAYING that in mixed company causes a whole variety of hornet's nests to be stirred up! I am finding this business one of the hardest in many lower level applications to actually tell the truth and not be viewed as an instigator. I am sure you know that half the small setups you see could be made 100% better in 5 minutes if the actual situation could be discussed honestly.
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There are seemingly two types of people - those that recognize that they don't know everything and eagerly learn all they can in order to improve, and those that think they know everything and won't listen to any advice.

I hope I'm in the first category - learning all I can from this forum and real life, constantly improving. I look where I was even a year ago and can't believe I didn't know x, y, or z.

Those that fall into the second category end up being stuck where they are, never improving.

I know your OP was about certain speakers causing the lack of intelligibility due to their driver arrangements, but I still feel that it's more often the operators than the rig.

And of course I don't mean any insult to anyone on this forum! If you're here reading, you are most likely looking to improve, just like me. Kudos to all of you.
 
Silas Pradetto said:
There are seemingly two types of people - those that recognize that they don't know everything and eagerly learn all they can in order to improve, and those that think they know everything and won't listen to any advice.

I hope I'm in the first category - learning all I can from this forum and real life, constantly improving. I look where I was even a year ago and can't believe I didn't know x, y, or z.

Those that fall into the second category end up being stuck where they are, never improving.

I know your OP was about certain speakers causing the lack of intelligibility due to their driver arrangements, but I still feel that it's more often the operators than the rig.

And of course I don't mean any insult to anyone on this forum! If you're here reading, you are most likely looking to improve, just like me. Kudos to all of you.
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There is the stuff you know and
There is the stuff you know you don't know

The scary one is the stuff you don't know you don't know!



Sent from my iPad HD
 
Re: Missing Link?

Henry Cohen said:
But they can't produce the same torque. Somebody else can detail the analogy.

("There's no substitute for cubic inches".)
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Yeah, why don't we do the whole torque vs. hp discussion to rival the X32 thread :roll:

The two vs. three way thing I believe is very much a question about what you want the speakers in question to do. If a driver is working very hard in the lower register, the sound in the upper register is going to get affected. A 10"+horn two way can sound glorious for vocals as long as it isn't asked to do too much of other stuff at the same time. Load it with tons of music in the 40-500 hz area, and the midrange will suffer, and in such a situation, a three way will often sound better. No hard and fast rules of course.
 
What? There's no such thing as a torque vs horsepower discussion! Torque is the real power, horsepower is how fast you can make it (how high is the redline). Would I prefer way more power but a 5K redline? I don't know... How much more? I like torque, but an engine you can really wind up is a beautiful thing.
 
Re: Missing Link?

Per Søvik said:
Yeah, why don't we do the whole torque vs. hp discussion to rival the X32 thread :roll:

The two vs. three way thing I believe is very much a question about what you want the speakers in question to do. If a driver is working very hard in the lower register, the sound in the upper register is going to get affected. A 10"+horn two way can sound glorious for vocals as long as it isn't asked to do too much of other stuff at the same time. Load it with tons of music in the 40-500 hz area, and the midrange will suffer, and in such a situation, a three way will often sound better. No hard and fast rules of course.
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Use the online calculator to calculate the torque of a Lestlie speaker. Horsepower Design Equations Formulas Calculator - Torque Rotating
 
Re: Missing Link?

Bennett Prescott said:
What? There's no such thing as a torque vs horsepower discussion! Torque is the real power, horsepower is how fast you can make it (how high is the redline). Would I prefer way more power but a 5K redline? I don't know... How much more? I like torque, but an engine you can really wind up is a beautiful thing.
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I'm not going there ;)~;-)~:wink:
 
My take of the cause of vocal mud is that it is less due to the configuration of the speakers and more due to crowds that will not shut up. 95 db of chatter will suck the clarity out of any system.

I am sure there is a horsepower/torque analogy there somewhere. Maybe something about driving around with a PTO engaged.
 
Re: Missing Link?

Rob Spence said:
There is the stuff you know and
There is the stuff you know you don't know

The scary one is the stuff you don't know you don't know!



Sent from my iPad HD
Click to expand...
Confucius said:
"True wisdom is knowing what you don't know”
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To me, the scariest is stuff other people are sure they know... and they are often in positions of high authority (like government).

One of the reason's I enjoyed writing articles and a column back in the '70/80 is because it forced me to reinspect things I though I knew. :-(

It is part of our cave man wiring to suppress distracting introspection when we should be alert for external threats. Unfortunately in modern times this doesn't leave us masters of our own cognition.

JR
 
Re: Missing Link?

Silas Pradetto said:
There are seemingly two types of people - those that recognize that they don't know everything and eagerly learn all they can in order to improve, and those that think they know everything and won't listen to any advice.

I hope I'm in the first category - learning all I can from this forum and real life, constantly improving. I look where I was even a year ago and can't believe I didn't know x, y, or z.

Those that fall into the second category end up being stuck where they are, never improving.

I know your OP was about certain speakers causing the lack of intelligibility due to their driver arrangements, but I still feel that it's more often the operators than the rig.

And of course I don't mean any insult to anyone on this forum! If you're here reading, you are most likely looking to improve, just like me. Kudos to all of you.
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Preach it Bro!....

and on the topic of horsepower and torque, I got this little nugget today....
295353_10151450599060820_1180613704_n.jpg
 
Re: Missing Link?

Not to get all motor head... Torque is like Amps and RPM is like Volts, so just like Watts of power is Amps "times" Volts, Horsepower is Torque "times" RPM (divided by 5252).

Just one term or the other alone is insufficient to fully characterize the potential energy. The difference between high voltage with low or high current, is like the difference between a harmless static shock, and death by lightning. :-(

JR
 
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