On my new monitors I can rotate the horns between 90x40 or 40x90. Which way should I have the horn in monitor duty?
What are the Pro's and Con's between my choices?
What are the Pro's and Con's between my choices?
Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
- Thread starter Matt Vivlamore
- Start date
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
90x40 gives you more cross-stage coverage, at the expense of coverage upstage-downstage. 40x90 gives you the opposite.
Assuming that the horn is next to the woofer, you'll also get more interaction between the 2 drivers in the 90x40 orientation.
I'd probably go with 40x90, as the separation between adjacent monitors will be greater, and it's a more useful orientation if you end up using the monitors as multipurpose boxes.
90x40 gives you more cross-stage coverage, at the expense of coverage upstage-downstage. 40x90 gives you the opposite.
Assuming that the horn is next to the woofer, you'll also get more interaction between the 2 drivers in the 90x40 orientation.
I'd probably go with 40x90, as the separation between adjacent monitors will be greater, and it's a more useful orientation if you end up using the monitors as multipurpose boxes.
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
If it matters about stage size; I am on smaller to medium stages. I would say the biggest stage is 32' wide and 16' deep.
If it matters about stage size; I am on smaller to medium stages. I would say the biggest stage is 32' wide and 16' deep.
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
Since your stages are not very wide, I would guess that you'd be happier with narrow dispersion. This keeps each monitor more focused on the area it needs to cover.
The downside though, is that you will end up with more sound above and below the artist. This may reflect off of back walls and the ceiling causing reflections into the audience. Depending on the size of the venue, bleed between monitors would be a better alternative than excessive reflections.
As with anything in audio, there is never one right answer for everything.
Since your stages are not very wide, I would guess that you'd be happier with narrow dispersion. This keeps each monitor more focused on the area it needs to cover.
The downside though, is that you will end up with more sound above and below the artist. This may reflect off of back walls and the ceiling causing reflections into the audience. Depending on the size of the venue, bleed between monitors would be a better alternative than excessive reflections.
As with anything in audio, there is never one right answer for everything.
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
Right now, here what I am going to try for a couple shows; I have set-up 2 "narrow" monitors (40x90) and 1 "wide" monitor (90x40). I'll place the "wide" monitor in the center for the lead singer and keep the "narrows" on the guitarist/bass on the SL/SR sides.
At the moment, I am not too concerned with SOS rig as I only have 4 wedges (3 DVX DM12 and 1 DVX DM15); but I plan on adding 1 more of each in the future or a pair of the DVX D15 tops.
BTW; the DVX DM12 has the RCF ND651 horn driver with the HF94 horn throat. The 12” was an 4Ω RCF JBX30106.
Right now, here what I am going to try for a couple shows; I have set-up 2 "narrow" monitors (40x90) and 1 "wide" monitor (90x40). I'll place the "wide" monitor in the center for the lead singer and keep the "narrows" on the guitarist/bass on the SL/SR sides.
At the moment, I am not too concerned with SOS rig as I only have 4 wedges (3 DVX DM12 and 1 DVX DM15); but I plan on adding 1 more of each in the future or a pair of the DVX D15 tops.
BTW; the DVX DM12 has the RCF ND651 horn driver with the HF94 horn throat. The 12” was an 4Ω RCF JBX30106.
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Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
The reason is that unless the horn has a large size (especially in the narrow pattern), it is not going to really make any difference-especially in the critical vocal range.
Sure it will make a difference up high (say above 4Khz), but down lower you may find that the ACTUAL pattern that comes out of the horn is exactly opposite what you would expect (at some freq).
For example: Below is the MEASURED polar response of a fairly large horn that is rated at 50 wide x 90 tall. It is 12" in the 50 pattern and 22" in the 90 pattern-so it would be considered VERY large for a horn in a monitor.
Notice how the pattern at 5Khz is completely opposite the pattern at 500Hz. So what is the pattern? You could argue either one-but they opposite.
With smaller horns-this will happen at higher freq.
When talking audio-size matters
The bigger question is-HOW large is the horn-in each of dimensions of the pattern?
The reason is that unless the horn has a large size (especially in the narrow pattern), it is not going to really make any difference-especially in the critical vocal range.
Sure it will make a difference up high (say above 4Khz), but down lower you may find that the ACTUAL pattern that comes out of the horn is exactly opposite what you would expect (at some freq).
For example: Below is the MEASURED polar response of a fairly large horn that is rated at 50 wide x 90 tall. It is 12" in the 50 pattern and 22" in the 90 pattern-so it would be considered VERY large for a horn in a monitor.
Notice how the pattern at 5Khz is completely opposite the pattern at 500Hz. So what is the pattern? You could argue either one-but they opposite.
With smaller horns-this will happen at higher freq.
When talking audio-size matters
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Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
Matt,
If I read monitors model numbers correctly, you are talking about dB Technologies range.
I looked them up : They have horizontally oriented HF and LF unit when used in wedge position.
Due to driver spacing in horizontal plane and the fact that performers ears are horizontally 'oriented' too, ANY wedge with this configuration will provide less then sufficient sonic result, regardless of HF horn pattern orientation.
To test this, improvise and try to set up wedges in such way that drivers will be oriented vertically.
Then and only then any discussion about HF horn orientation will become relevant.
Good intelegibility and good gain before feedback level, when talking wedges, has everything to do EXCLUSIVELY with phase coherence.
Later is non existent in Horizontally oriented wedges, regardless of make or model.
Do not confuse this with some (RARE !!) good MTM designs.
Coaxials almost by definition work better even if they cost a fraction of what 'others' cost.
I hope this helps.
With utmost respect
Matt,
If I read monitors model numbers correctly, you are talking about dB Technologies range.
I looked them up : They have horizontally oriented HF and LF unit when used in wedge position.
Due to driver spacing in horizontal plane and the fact that performers ears are horizontally 'oriented' too, ANY wedge with this configuration will provide less then sufficient sonic result, regardless of HF horn pattern orientation.
To test this, improvise and try to set up wedges in such way that drivers will be oriented vertically.
Then and only then any discussion about HF horn orientation will become relevant.
Good intelegibility and good gain before feedback level, when talking wedges, has everything to do EXCLUSIVELY with phase coherence.
Later is non existent in Horizontally oriented wedges, regardless of make or model.
Do not confuse this with some (RARE !!) good MTM designs.
Coaxials almost by definition work better even if they cost a fraction of what 'others' cost.
I hope this helps.
With utmost respect
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
Ales, you are correct. I did purchase dB Technologies DVX wedges: 3x DM12 and 1x DM15.
Ales, you are correct. I did purchase dB Technologies DVX wedges: 3x DM12 and 1x DM15.
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
There is a "sound" reason many old sound riders (when some sound engineers actually were engineers :^) required monitor's HF driver to be located above the woofer.
Ales is precisely correct in his review of any side by side arrangement of a HF/LF or HF/MF arrangement when the performer/listener will move off axis from the center alignment.
90, 40, whatever, it will sucketh, a simple fact of wavelength as Ivan mentions.
Rotate as you please.
Sounds slightly pornographic, as will the results.
Fortunately, most musicians love porno, so don't worry.
There is a "sound" reason many old sound riders (when some sound engineers actually were engineers :^) required monitor's HF driver to be located above the woofer.
Ales is precisely correct in his review of any side by side arrangement of a HF/LF or HF/MF arrangement when the performer/listener will move off axis from the center alignment.
90, 40, whatever, it will sucketh, a simple fact of wavelength as Ivan mentions.
Rotate as you please.
Sounds slightly pornographic, as will the results.
Fortunately, most musicians love porno, so don't worry.
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
Yet another reason for coax oriented drivers
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
Once again, I have to add my endorsement for coaxial monitors as well. I just finished two nights of providing sound for The Makem and Spain Brothers. Friday night's soundcheck only lasted thirty minutes tops, and the group were really impressed with the BMS wedges-they even asked what the design was, so I gave them the quick run down, and Curtis List's crossover design work.
I had all four of them on SM86 vocal mics.
At the end of the show, while thanking folks, they graciously pointed to me at the back and then Connor Makem goes, "great monitors....folks, John made these, nice job!".
First time I've gotten a testimonial during a show.
Last night, the Makem and Spain Brothers played a few songs during the Irish American Hall of Fame Gala, a black tie affair with inductees of Irish heritage from Politics, Sports, Art, Science, etc.
Joel Murray was master of ceremonies, and Illinois governor Pat Quinn was a special guest, along with inductees. Again, SM86's on vocals. Much smaller stage in a ballroom. I'm also much closer for my FOH position, where I also get a better feel for just how loud they like their wedges.
These coaxial wedges have earned their keep for me, no doubt about it.
Best regards,
John
Once again, I have to add my endorsement for coaxial monitors as well. I just finished two nights of providing sound for The Makem and Spain Brothers. Friday night's soundcheck only lasted thirty minutes tops, and the group were really impressed with the BMS wedges-they even asked what the design was, so I gave them the quick run down, and Curtis List's crossover design work.
I had all four of them on SM86 vocal mics.
At the end of the show, while thanking folks, they graciously pointed to me at the back and then Connor Makem goes, "great monitors....folks, John made these, nice job!".
First time I've gotten a testimonial during a show.
Last night, the Makem and Spain Brothers played a few songs during the Irish American Hall of Fame Gala, a black tie affair with inductees of Irish heritage from Politics, Sports, Art, Science, etc.
Joel Murray was master of ceremonies, and Illinois governor Pat Quinn was a special guest, along with inductees. Again, SM86's on vocals. Much smaller stage in a ballroom. I'm also much closer for my FOH position, where I also get a better feel for just how loud they like their wedges.
These coaxial wedges have earned their keep for me, no doubt about it.
Best regards,
John
Re: Monitor Horn Dispersion; 90x40 or 40x90 settings?
One thing to be clear about is that a typical wedge with a 12" or 15" is going to have, more or less, a round pattern from it's lowest frequencies up to just below the crossover point. In an "economy" wedge this will likely be well above 1Khz and even above 2Khz. So, the pattern flip that Ivan shows will have different ramifications with a smaller horn and a crossover to a woofer. The other anomaly is what happens to the pattern when you put a box on the floor. There will be notches in the response that result from the sound coming off the front of the box and bouncing off the floor (and potentially the ceiling in some venues) that will affect the sound at a performer's ears as well as at the vocal mic. And there are other things that happen when a speaker comes into proximity with a boundary. All these different factors help show why there is sometimes very little practical difference between cheap and expensive gear. Sometimes it's not about which hammer you use but the fact that you're using a hammer at all.
One thing to be clear about is that a typical wedge with a 12" or 15" is going to have, more or less, a round pattern from it's lowest frequencies up to just below the crossover point. In an "economy" wedge this will likely be well above 1Khz and even above 2Khz. So, the pattern flip that Ivan shows will have different ramifications with a smaller horn and a crossover to a woofer. The other anomaly is what happens to the pattern when you put a box on the floor. There will be notches in the response that result from the sound coming off the front of the box and bouncing off the floor (and potentially the ceiling in some venues) that will affect the sound at a performer's ears as well as at the vocal mic. And there are other things that happen when a speaker comes into proximity with a boundary. All these different factors help show why there is sometimes very little practical difference between cheap and expensive gear. Sometimes it's not about which hammer you use but the fact that you're using a hammer at all.