More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

[Chris Nixon]

Hi,

I'm going to be doing a theatre show that will probably have less mics than actors needing them. Mics, or maybe just transmitters, will be moved from one performer to another.

I'm not particularly experienced with theatre so I'm planning to set up the console with a channel for each cast member and patch the receiver they will be using to their channel, and apply digital trim per channel. Is this the normal / best way to do it?

I could do one channel for each receiver and scene recall channel settings but option one seems much simpler if the channel count allows for it.

Console will most likely be an iLive.

I don't know what the wireless system is either, but is it standard procedure to change transmitter gains between actors or go for a compromise between the two? Setting and forgetting will mean the gain won't be changed to the wrong value during a mic swap, but will be less than ideal gain structure on two performers.

Any tips?

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

Since mic positioning is critical to incoming signal level/tone, it is a bit less possible to make individual pre-sets for shared mics between actors. If at all possible, just rent a few more mics so they won't have to be switched and swap out the transmitters. You should be good to go.

 

[Jordan Wolf]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

Dick's advice is spot-on. As far as level-setting goes, most inexperienced actors would strain to give you a usable level, let alone clip a portion of the signal chain without yelling at the top of their lungs.

My SOP for settings gain structure for theatre mics is:
1. Get placement right (this includes picking elements with the correct sensitivity, etc.)
2*. Set transmitter gain/sensitivity (have actor go through loudest lines as if actually on-stage - I have them shout/yell if that's what they're going to be doing during the performance)

* - If swapping TX packs, I find that setting the gain to the loudest variable usually works fine; just don't give that TC to the quietest talker.

3. Set channel gain "accordingly", so that there's 3dB-6dB more headroom during rehearsal than during run-of-show (most performers, whether they realize it or not, perform louder during the show than at practice...fine by me, as long as I compensate for it beforehand).

4. Monitor repeatedly as needed during rehearsals and adjust if necessary.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

I'd just add that all TX swapping should be done by someone other than the actors. I'm lucky to always have a "stage mom" in the wings to do nothing but make sure the mics stay in place and to swap transmitters. Actors will trash the connectors or crimp the cables. A "hand"...not so much.

 

[Jordan Wolf]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

I'd just add that all TX swapping should be done by someone other than the actors. I'm lucky to always have a "stage mom" in the wings to do nothing but make sure the mics stay in place and to swap transmitters. Actors will trash the connectors or crimp the cables. A "hand"...not so much.

Again (and as usual), +1.

 

[Chris Nixon]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

Thanks. If there are mic changes, would it be best to use a channel-per-actor and double patch the inputs or use a channel-per-mic and scene recall settings?

My current scene recall settings are just for mutes, meaning I can modify someones input channel settings without the next scene resetting them all again. How often would you recommend using scenes and how much manual mixing would normally be done between these?

My current plan is to recall a new set of mutes every time there is a change (someone on, someone off) on stage.

Chris

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

If you have the ability to process the same mic two ways by double-patching, I'd do it.

 

[mackerr]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

Thanks. If there are mic changes, would it be best to use a channel-per-actor and double patch the inputs or use a channel-per-mic and scene recall settings?

My current scene recall settings are just for mutes, meaning I can modify someones input channel settings without the next scene resetting them all again. How often would you recommend using scenes and how much manual mixing would normally be done between these?

My current plan is to recall a new set of mutes every time there is a change (someone on, someone off) on stage.

Chris

if you are doing changes for mutes why not do scene changes instead and have the level and eq set for each user of the mic? I think double patching would be distracting because the meters will be flashing away on multiple channels for each mic, possibly confusing the operator about which mic should be live. Using scenes instead of mutes lets you manage all the channel parameters, not just on/off.

Mac

 

[Jake Scudder]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

Thanks. If there are mic changes, would it be best to use a channel-per-actor and double patch the inputs or use a channel-per-mic and scene recall settings?

My current scene recall settings are just for mutes, meaning I can modify someones input channel settings without the next scene resetting them all again. How often would you recommend using scenes and how much manual mixing would normally be done between these?

My current plan is to recall a new set of mutes every time there is a change (someone on, someone off) on stage.

Chris

I would double patch if you have the inputs available.

Typically, musicals are mixed line by line on VCAs. Every line of dialog is a fader throw. In the songs, each singer with a feature will get a VCA assignment. Ensemble groups can be programmed into a single VCA. If time allows, you can blend these groups as needed on the input faders within the given snapshot. This is a lot of programming but it's the right way to do it. For a recent reading I mixed (two rehearsals and three presentations) I had around 50-60 snapshots for very basic programming. On the current show (regional production) I have 190 snapshots encompassing everything from VCA changes, recalling plugins, sending midi triggers to QLab playback, sending midi triggers to lighting, or any combination of the above.

For your first time out, I would recommend working in any way that you are comfortable and deliver results that are acceptable to the client. If you end up doing a lot of theater, your results will vastly improve with the precision of manual mixing.

 

[Jake Scudder]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

if you are doing changes for mutes why not do scene changes instead and have the level and eq set for each user of the mic? I think double patching would be distracting because the meters will be flashing away on multiple channels for each mic, possibly confusing the operator about which mic should be live. Using scenes instead of mutes lets you manage all the channel parameters, not just on/off.

Mac

I recommended double patching because I always safe input eq. Two nights ago I had a lav mic placement slip. This input had a hi-shelf that I was able to relax a bit and make it until the next opportunity to fix the placement. Once I was notified that the placement was fixed I was able to restore the cut before the next entrance. That is only possible if the eq is recall safe.

 

[Mark McFarlane]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

...
* - If swapping TX packs, I find that setting the gain to the loudest variable usually works fine; just don't give that TC to the quietest talker.
...

+1

If you have to swap packs, try to find speakers with similar volumes and let them share. Soft speakers share pack A. Loud speakers share pack B.

 

[Nick Latkowski]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

I've been fighting the same problems for the musicals they do at my school for the past couple years. I do not do anything with theater otherwise, music is a lot better IMO. anyway though, If you have the option to double patch 1 receiver, I'd recommend it. I sadly have to deal with using a presonus for what I do, and don't have the option to do, a bunch of teenagers who refuse to listen when I stress the fact of "Keeping their mic in the same position" every night, and a teacher who does not know enough to assign mics. (She tends to assign lavs and headsets to the same pack when it gets switched.) I normally just make as many notes on changes as possible, then deal with the variables on the spot. Pretty much just make the best out of what equipment you have. Don't know if you can digitally patch on the iLive or not, (Never used one) But i cant on the presonus. Reasons I keep trying to convince them to buy an Ls9, M7, x32, etc. Much better consoles, more capability and IMO easier to use. Anyway, you're probably never going to get every variable taken care of, but eliminate as many as possible, or start taking notes during rehearsals.

 

[Chris Nixon]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

Don't know if you can digitally patch on the iLive or not, (Never used one) But i cant on the presonus. Reasons I keep trying to convince them to buy an Ls9, M7, x32, etc. Much better consoles, more capability and IMO easier to use. Anyway, you're probably never going to get every variable taken care of, but eliminate as many as possible, or start taking notes during rehearsals.

I can definitely double patch inputs on the iLive.

You could use a Y cable on your Presonus, if you have enough free channels... I'd take the LS9 off the list of consoles you want them to buy, you can get so much more for the same or less money, but that's for another thread. For my money I'd get a GLD, unless scene fades are important. I recommend it a lot because I like it, no affiliation etc. I'm happy with the iLive for this, I use a GLD regularly and the iLive works the same way, with some more features. The only issue with it is that it can't do scene fades.

I'm not going to get a soundcheck at the individual actor level, so I'll get one person sounding like that person, then copy it to the rest of the channels and make changes to the individual channels as I hear the need to.

Chris

 

[Nick Latkowski]

Re: More cast than mics, RF gain structure...

I've had the idea for Y cables for a while. We have the input cap for them, but they normally fill the rest of the inputs with overheads I never turn On. (teacher thinks they are important) As far as the console goes, I only have the Ls9 on the list because I personally prefer mixing on them as opposed to consoles on an equal level. But for the money, Im perfectly fine with the x32 as well. Ive been using one of those all summer for the company I work for. Anyway though, like you said thats for another thread.