More on the Gibson story

[Randy Gartner]

It appears that even carrying a guitar made with certain types of wood is illegal under the latest update to this law. What's amazes me is that if the wood product is produced in India,it is legal,but if we produce it here,it's illegal,which could mean more jobs going over seas.But now 2 Tennsessee lawmakers,one a D and one an R are sponsoring legislation to remedy this.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...l-to-protect-guitar-owners-after-gibson-raid/

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: More on the Gibson story

It appears that even carrying a guitar made with certain types of wood is illegal under the latest update to this law. What's amazes me is that if the wood product is produced in India,it is legal,but if we produce it here,it's illegal,which could mean more jobs going over seas.But now 2 Tennsessee lawmakers,one a D and one an R are sponsoring legislation to remedy this.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...l-to-protect-guitar-owners-after-gibson-raid/

There is more to this than the simplification you present, but the issue with the Lacey Act is that it *could* result in vintage instuments and their owners being subjected to the new extensions of the Act.

And I think The Tennessian (sp.. the Nashvegas paper) is a less biased source than Faux Noise. I suggest you follow their coverage of this hometown issue for more reality and less political slanting.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: More on the Gibson story

Ex post facto laws are already prohibited by the constitution, the problem is vague language in the amendment to the act and the fear of over enthusiastic prosecution. It sounds like a good idea the amend the amendment to eliminate confusion. I doubt seizing old instruments was ever the intent of the original or changes. Problem is the letter of the law is what matters. Intent only matters after the third date and outside of the courtroom.

The Gibson situation almost seems like he pissed somebody off in a high place and is getting special attention.

I'm probably in violation of some EPA regulation for exhaling CO2, so I wouldn't want to invite too much scrutiny.

JR

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: More on the Gibson story

I think it's a plot by the domestic guitar manufacturers to get all the vintage instruments off the streets and out of the hands of the musicians so they can sell more new instruments and boost their sales. :razz:

 

[Randy Gartner]

Re: More on the Gibson story

There is more to this than the simplification you present, but the issue with the Lacey Act is that it *could* result in vintage instuments and their owners being subjected to the new extensions of the Act.

And I think The Tennessian (sp.. the Nashvegas paper) is a less biased source than Faux Noise. I suggest you follow their coverage of this hometown issue for more reality and less political slanting.

Tim,
apparently you don't like Fox , so be it. I don't like CNN or CNBC, but if it wasn't for Fox,I doubt that this story would be making national news.I haven't seen or heard anything from other national news outlets on this story. But even if it "could" as you say result in prosecutions of someomne carrying around a vintage guitar,that in itself is rediculous.This is what happens when politicians pass laws and then leave the implimentation to bureaucrats.

PS,I do listen to NPR and watch PBS. Some good stuff most of the time.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: More on the Gibson story

Tim,
apparently you don't like Fox , so be it. I don't like CNN or CNBC, but if it wasn't for Fox,I doubt that this story would be making national news.I haven't seen or heard anything from other national news outlets on this story. But even if it "could" as you say result in prosecutions of someomne carrying around a vintage guitar,that in itself is rediculous.This is what happens when politicians pass laws and then leave the implimentation to bureaucrats.

PS,I do listen to NPR and watch PBS. Some good stuff most of the time.

Randy, how about The Daily Beast, Reuters, CBS, ABC, NPR, USA Today, Wall Street Journal, US News and World Report, Media Matters, Natural News?

All of these have carried it.

Its just where you happen to get it.

Regards, Jack

PS, one of the online industry rags has been having stories about this for years. Nothing "new".

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: More on the Gibson story

Ex post facto laws are already prohibited by the constitution, the problem is vague language in the amendment to the act and the fear of over enthusiastic prosecution. It sounds like a good idea the amend the amendment to eliminate confusion. I doubt seizing old instruments was ever the intent of the original or changes. Problem is the letter of the law is what matters. Intent only matters after the third date and outside of the courtroom.

The Gibson situation almost seems like he pissed somebody off in a high place and is getting special attention.

I'm probably in violation of some EPA regulation for exhaling CO2, so I wouldn't want to invite too much scrutiny.

JR

JR, Once I was flying my photographic balloon over a crowd at a concert to get pictures, and two (drunk &?) hippies came over to me to ask me if I was measuring the CO2 that the dancing/moshing crowd was giving off. ;-)

It seems that the intent and the reality of a lot of laws is never examined fully.
In two separate states this year there were laws proposed that would make it illegal to photograph farms.
Of course the intent was to stop PETA from documenting bad treatment towards animals, but the reality was that if you took a picture of a sunset, with farm land in it, or if your children took a picture of each other with cell phones in the back seat, and there was a farm or ranch anywhere in the picture, it would have been a felony.
In both cases the persons who wrote the laws were questioned on this, and responded that they didn't think there would be any reason to bring charges in cases like these.
But of course the possibility existed.

Regards, Jack

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: More on the Gibson story

JR, Once I was flying my photographic balloon over a crowd at a concert to get pictures, and two (drunk &?) hippies came over to me to ask me if I was measuring the CO2 that the dancing/moshing crowd was giving off. ;-)

It seems that the intent and the reality of a lot of laws is never examined fully.
In two separate states this year there were laws proposed that would make it illegal to photograph farms.
Of course the intent was to stop PETA from documenting bad treatment towards animals, but the reality was that if you took a picture of a sunset, with farm land in it, or if your children took a picture of each other with cell phones in the back seat, and there was a farm or ranch anywhere in the picture, it would have been a felony.
In both cases the persons who wrote the laws were questioned on this, and responded that they didn't think there would be any reason to bring charges in cases like these.
But of course the possibility existed.

Regards, Jack

Exactly,

and this example, and the examples of vintage guitar owners being harassed, is why the process of ALL new laws being written should be reviewed and restructured.

Laws are being passed at an increasing rate with little objective review. This Law making...is a shameful process, brought about by miss-guided, well intentioned but, none-the-less ignorant individuals. Why is it that we allow those individuals to take positions of power, when, they are so easily confused, and so easily corrupted ? (seeing a great arguement for Term limits and Political office limits)

I believe that there is a great need for the protection of endangered species. But, there should be a Worldwide effort to develop these protective goals. When non recyclable resources are used, (like plants, animals & trees) they should be farmed or replanted. (1 for 1 harvest to planting ratio) Aboriginal societies throughout History and throughout the World, have always held to the idea of ...taking what is needed and protecting the remainder for future use.

Without getting into rehashing the same arguments regarding India's job protection programs... I find it short-sighted by Companies like Gibson that have not developed a program to farm these wood species to help protect their production. Shame on them.

Hammer

 

[John Roberts]

Re: More on the Gibson story

JR, Once I was flying my photographic balloon over a crowd at a concert to get pictures, and two (drunk &?) hippies came over to me to ask me if I was measuring the CO2 that the dancing/moshing crowd was giving off. ;-)

It seems that the intent and the reality of a lot of laws is never examined fully.
In two separate states this year there were laws proposed that would make it illegal to photograph farms.
Of course the intent was to stop PETA from documenting bad treatment towards animals, but the reality was that if you took a picture of a sunset, with farm land in it, or if your children took a picture of each other with cell phones in the back seat, and there was a farm or ranch anywhere in the picture, it would have been a felony.
In both cases the persons who wrote the laws were questioned on this, and responded that they didn't think there would be any reason to bring charges in cases like these.
But of course the possibility existed.

Regards, Jack

Ah, the unintended consequences of legislative over reach. We are getting to the point where it is too easy to innocently break some law, written with good intentions but like Charlie said without objective review. I have cited the example of a small businessman trying to develop a new battery technology, who had to shutter his workshop when he ran out of money, planning to return to his experiments later. He got convicted of improper handling of toxic waste. He won't be inventing that new battery any time soon. Maybe he should have applied for a loan from the energy department instead (while it seems they favor building new factories in the middle of an economic downturn)?

When we have so many laws on the books it can become a matter of selective prosecution for some disgruntled regulator to go after somebody they don't like who pissed him off for whatever reason. All they need to do is find one or more infractions of some obscure law to pin on him. We will have turned the protection of our freedom with rule of law, into a form of legal oppression where mid level government regulators can wield disproportionate power selectively. In a totalitarian state the dictator just makes the rules as he goes, this legal form of oppression just uses the legislative excess, to accomplish the same goal.

I don't mean to sound like chicken-little, and I am not saying Gibson is one such case of selective prosecution (while some probably do). I just think that this is something we need to carefully ponder before it reaches that degree of excess. Legislators think they are doing us a service by passing a lot of laws.. in many cases not really. Any law that creates a winner, also turns everybody else into losers.

JR

 

[John Roberts]

Re: More on the Gibson story

Tim,
apparently you don't like Fox , so be it. I don't like CNN or CNBC, but if it wasn't for Fox,I doubt that this story would be making national news.I haven't seen or heard anything from other national news outlets on this story. But even if it "could" as you say result in prosecutions of someomne carrying around a vintage guitar,that in itself is rediculous.This is what happens when politicians pass laws and then leave the implimentation to bureaucrats.

PS,I do listen to NPR and watch PBS. Some good stuff most of the time.

I don't trust any single news source, they all have their biases and blatant omissions. TV news is compromised by format to favor good visuals over actual news, and no more than 2 or three stories at a time. Radio is good for game scores and maybe one news story a day. There is a lot more going on EVERY day, that doesn't filter down to neat TV news items. I used to read three daily newspapers, but have whittled that down to one, after determining the bias of the one I read so I can apply windage.

I was excited when the 24 hour cable news programs started thinking we would get more news, instead we get a small handful of stories, over and over and over ad nauseum. And whats worse most of the news organizations seem to syncronize on the same few stories. They clearly watch each other. No one source is completely adequate or comprehensive, and many single sources will lead you astray, even thought they do have their enthusiastic audiences.

Triangulating from multiple sources is always good. Like Ivan's joke about test equipment, with one meter you know what the voltage is with two meters you never know which one is right... but with news sources you know they are all incomplete, so you must form your own opinion from all the evidence you can find.

JR

 

[Chris Davis]

Re: More on the Gibson story

Exactly,

and this example, and the examples of vintage guitar owners being harassed, is why the process of ALL new laws being written should be reviewed and restructured.

Laws are being passed at an increasing rate with little objective review. This Law making...is a shameful process, brought about by miss-guided, well intentioned but, none-the-less ignorant individuals. Why is it that we allow those individuals to take positions of power, when, they are so easily confused, and so easily corrupted ? (seeing a great arguement for Term limits and Political office limits)

I believe that there is a great need for the protection of endangered species. But, there should be a Worldwide effort to develop these protective goals. When non recyclable resources are used, (like plants, animals & trees) they should be farmed or replanted. (1 for 1 harvest to planting ratio) Aboriginal societies throughout History and throughout the World, have always held to the idea of ...taking what is needed and protecting the remainder for future use.

Without getting into rehashing the same arguments regarding India's job protection programs... I find it short-sighted by Companies like Gibson that have not developed a program to farm these wood species to help protect their production. Shame on them.

Hammer

Hi Charlie. +1. Excellent post. I am more or less a political centrist, and no matter how I look at it, the legislative process seems to have been corrupted.

 

[Chris Davis]

Re: More on the Gibson story

Triangulating from multiple sources is always good. Like Ivan's joke about test equipment, with one meter you know what the voltage is with two meters you never know which one is right... but with news sources you know they are all incomplete, so you must form your own opinion from all the evidence you can find.

JR

I think that is a very good analogy. I might add that the room for copious amounts of error in the news media is intentional, and the factory calibration procedure for an industrial grade DMM is also intentional. Heck, the factory calibration procedure can take up to a couple hours, with many different types of measurement approaches! Of course news networks will "self-adjust" throughout the day if they think it will save face.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: More on the Gibson story

I think that is a very good analogy. I might add that the room for copious amounts of error in the news media is intentional, and the factory calibration procedure for an industrial grade DMM is also intentional. Heck, the factory calibration procedure can take up to a couple hours, with many different types of measurement approaches! Of course news networks will "self-adjust" throughout the day if they think it will save face.

I prefer to think that a lot of the framing of news reportage is innocent (like playing that old kindergarten game of telephone) and simply trying to appeal to their audience or what they think the audience wants to hear (its a business).

Another factor is how political operatives of all sides effectively steer the images that TV news presents with concerted efforts to provide photo opportunities (that they can control the unspoken message within), and talking points, so the 30 second audio bite will probably one from the short list coming from multiple directions in perfect harmony. This management of talking points to control sound bites is so bad, that in one segment last night, the nominal representative of one side's viewpoint seemed to answer every question in non-sequitors but each answer a programmed talking point, albeit unrelated to the questions.

I for one get angry that the political discussion gets dominated by operatives from one side or the other to focus on points each side thinks they have an advantage in pushing, while important issues to all of us go largely ignored, since they don't perceive any political hay to be made from discussion.

It's all a game, and the easiest way to lose is to not realize it's a game, and what the rules are. So lets all play nice.

JR

PS: To say something favorable about the medium (TV), already this weekend I have learned useful factoids from two different CSPAN segments that I caught in passing. There be some pearls there, between all the politicians bloviating to empty chambers.

 

[Randy Gartner]

Re: More on the Gibson story

I don't trust any single news source, they all have their biases and blatant omissions. TV news is compromised by format to favor good visuals over actual news, and no more than 2 or three stories at a time. Radio is good for game scores and maybe one news story a day. There is a lot more going on EVERY day, that doesn't filter down to neat TV news items. I used to read three daily newspapers, but have whittled that down to one, after determining the bias of the one I read so I can apply windage.

I was excited when the 24 hour cable news programs started thinking we would get more news, instead we get a small handful of stories, over and over and over ad nauseum. And whats worse most of the news organizations seem to syncronize on the same few stories. They clearly watch each other. No one source is completely adequate or comprehensive, and many single sources will lead you astray, even thought they do have their enthusiastic audiences.

Triangulating from multiple sources is always good. Like Ivan's joke about test equipment, with one meter you know what the voltage is with two meters you never know which one is right... but with news sources you know they are all incomplete, so you must form your own opinion from all the evidence you can find.

JR

JR,
I agree,I don't trust any one news source either.At 6pm,I watch the PBS News Hours untill 6:30 because they take the time to have at least 2 sources to discuss the issues,unlike say ABC,CBS etc which give a minute or 2 newsbite.Then at 6:30 I turn to Fox to watch the panel.Durring the day I listen to local talk and Limbaugh and then at the end of the day to NPR.So I try to cover all bases.But when someone says off hand that just because it's from Fox it's biased,I get a little irritated.Maybe I', wrong,but I believe Gibson has been unfairly targeted because they didn't give to the party that's currently in power.But my main gripe is that our government thinks it's ok if the product is made in India,but it's not ok if it's made here. That is just plain stupid and it's just one more reason why jobs are moving overseas.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: More on the Gibson story

JR,
But my main gripe is that our government thinks it's ok if the product is made in India,but it's not ok if it's made here. That is just plain stupid and it's just one more reason why jobs are moving overseas.

I don't think they think it's OK they are just not capable of doing what it takes to attract business here, instead of chasing it off.

An interesting blurb that was leaked from the upcoming Steve Jobs biography was a conversation about why he doesn't build his Apple products here. The answer from him reportedly was because he couldn't source the several hundred engineers here to work in the factories to support the tens of thousands of workers to assemble the I-poop.

I don't think it's quite that simple, as there is a huge supply chain infrastructure for components and sub assemblies that has gravitated to that far east center of gravity for manufacturing, but it's clear we need to improve our schools and somehow motivate kids to pursue science.

We need to do more positive things, like the free trade bills finally approved, and less negative for trade moves like the tariffs on imported tires, that just caused China to react in kind with duties on chicken and other US farm exports.

I don't think it's governments job to somehow create jobs or save the economy, but I wish they would stop fiddling about and claiming they can or will, like all the several candidates

JR

PS: Hon Hai who currently still builds the I-poop has announced they will buy one million robots. Apparently hey figure the robots won't jump from tall dormitory buildings and cause them embarrassment.