More spec sheet nonsense

David Morison

Freshman
Aug 21, 2012
219
18
18
Aberdeen, Scotland
Hey Ivan,
Get a load of this - some joker's claiming they've built a cab with 100% electrical to acoustic conversion efficiency, think you're going to want to have a go at them for such obvious rubbish....

100% efficiency.png
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

Hey Ivan,
Get a load of this - some joker's claiming they've built a cab with 100% electrical to acoustic conversion efficiency, think you're going to want to have a go at them for such obvious rubbish....

View attachment 7897
Hey Ivan,
Get a load of this - some joker's claiming they've built a cab with 100% electrical to acoustic conversion efficiency, think you're going to want to have a go at them for such obvious rubbish....

View attachment 7897
Maybe I am missing what you are trying to point out. Can you explain a bit better?

The spec at the bottom is a bit redundant-I will look into that.
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

I think he is getting at the specs for the other speakers list continuous and peak output as "xxx dB SPL"
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

I'm shocked, a data sheet mistake... The reality is that design engineers don't generally update or prepare the data sheets, it's often like that kindergarden game of telephone where some graphic artist or website puke who doesn't even know the right questions to ask, collects data from people who do, and fills out a template that looks like some other ones..

I'm sure Ivan just loves hearing about data sheet errors... because it never ever happened to him...:-)

We are getting closer to letting engineers manage website data bases directly, as if they need more administrata to consume their work day.

The double edged sword from automation eliminating all the low value touches between source and output, is the last man standing (still employed) has to do all the work.

JR
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

I'm shocked, a data sheet mistake... The reality is that design engineers don't generally update or prepare the data sheets, it's often like that kindergarden game of telephone where some graphic artist or website puke who doesn't even know the right questions to ask, collects data from people who do, and fills out a template that looks like some other ones..

I'm sure Ivan just loves hearing about data sheet errors... because it never ever happened to him...:-)

We are getting closer to letting engineers manage website data bases directly, as if they need more administrata to consume their work day.

The double edged sword from automation eliminating all the low value touches between source and output, is the last man standing (still employed) has to do all the work.

JR

Exactly. I submit the numbers-but don't do any of the "data entry". Sometimes it is run by me for proof reading-other times not. I don't look at all the data everyday to see when it goes up or if it is correct.

We do appreciate the "error catches". It means people are paying attention. It is amazing how little this happens these days.

Sometimes it is quite fun (in a sick twisted way) how long an error exists on a spec sheet before anybody says anything.

The basic problem is that the people entering the data often don't understand enough to realize there is an issue or to "proof themselves".
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

Maybe I am missing what you are trying to point out. Can you explain a bit better?

The spec at the bottom is a bit redundant-I will look into that.

It's the upper of the two spec's I flagged that's wrong, not the bottom.
101dB is an efficiency of approximately 8% (if that were from one Watt input, obviously the impedance curve affects this somewhat), so 400W electrical input should result in a ballpark output of 35 acoustic Watts, not 400W.

There's also a very slight misrepresentation of the frequency range apparent when comparing the quoted range with the graph on the spec sheet.
The max level on the graph is 105dB at approx. 310Hz and 1.8kHz, so if that's the top of the +/-3dB range, then the bottom of the +/-3dB range should be where the curve drops through 99dB. That point looks to me to be about half an octave above the 113Hz on the specs.
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

It's the upper of the two spec's I flagged that's wrong, not the bottom.
101dB is an efficiency of approximately 8% (if that were from one Watt input, obviously the impedance curve affects this somewhat), so 400W electrical input should result in a ballpark output of 35 acoustic Watts, not 400W.

There's also a very slight misrepresentation of the frequency range apparent when comparing the quoted range with the graph on the spec sheet.
The max level on the graph is 105dB at approx. 310Hz and 1.8kHz, so if that's the top of the +/-3dB range, then the bottom of the +/-3dB range should be where the curve drops through 99dB. That point looks to me to be about half an octave above the 113Hz on the specs.
It does not say acoustical watt output-and that is not a standard spec that you see on spec sheets anyway. Who ever entered the data just put some wrong numbers in-watts instead of SPL. Simple as that.

And if you look at the impedance graph (most don't even show that) you will see that the average impedance is much higher than the rated 8 ohms. To me-it should be rated closer to 10 or 12 ohms (as that more realisticlly describes the overall load presented to the amplifier output). But since many people simply have no idea how to drive a loudspeaker other than 4-8-16 ohms-it is rated at the next lowest "standard" number. It is this way on many of our products.

In reality-the speaker (and i would argue all loudspeakers) have a freq response wAY out of +/- 3dB. It all depends on how much smoothing is used on the graph. Remove the smoothing and measure with enough data points and you will get a response that is all over the map-nowhere near 3dB. But nobody does that.

And if you want to use the "top" of the SPL, then the sensitivity would be rated higher-along with higher max output-the spec that is missing. But we rate speakers down around the average sensitivity-which gives lower numbers-but also gives a more realistic result that people can expect.

In my opinion the sensitivity HAS to be tied to the low freq cutoff-if not both numbers are just about useless-or at least not meaningful. So with the rated sensitivity of 101dB that gives a -3 (not -9dB like other manufacturers often like to use and "call" it -3dB) at the spec sheet numbers.

Yes there is a little dip just above the low freq rated point-but we are talking about USABLE specs. If we used more averaging then that dip would not be as low and would look better.

To me (feel free to argue) the most important thing is the -3dB point. You can easily pull down anything that is to hot-but trying to "make up" the low points puts additional strains on the loudspeaker-especially on the top and bottom of the response.

To me the really sad thing is how few manufacturers even provide a freq response-and many times it is HIGHLY smoothed so as not to look so "ragged" and people just assume that it is correct. They don't show how much smoothing is applied (that is on all of our graphs at the bottom) along with the number of samples the measurement used (at the top of the graph.

The sad trend is manufacturers only giving simple numbers and no measurements to back it up- and HOPING that the buying public will accept the numbers as fact.

So when people do present real data-it gets looked at real hard-and the gear with no data gets a "free pass".

I really wish people would put all products through the same "magnifying glass" and see what they come up with.

I won't give any names, but there are a number new products that are VERY expensive and have NO measured data (for the public anyway). Heck- several don't even give simple numbers-sensitiivty-power capacity-freq response (however that is determined), yet they want people to put down LOTS of hard cash to use them-just because they are "special".

I am sorry-but "adequate" or "ample" is not a spec number-at least to me. As compared to what? IS 20 miles per gallon "adequate" Not for a motor cycle and it is really great for a tractor trailer rig. So without other qualifiers-a simple number is almost useless.

Surely some measurements were done during the design process?

OK I'll stop now before I say what I really think---------------------------------------------
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

We are familiar with most of your concerns. Here's one from me. What percentage of customers do you think understand specs well enough to use them critically? IMO single digit percentage if that.

Published Specs are the bane of engineering that would love to explain every number with full details about every single thing and the red meat used by merchandisers to create sellable differences between products that often aren't really significant.

Loudspeakers are a pretty mature category and mass market value offerings are rarely well characterized by spec sheets. Maybe if we had some 3d paper, or 4d for the time axis.

It does make a difference for some professional customers to match product to specific applications, so Ivan keep up your good fight, but don't expect a greek chorus to join in.

The vast majority of customers are better off trusting a respected brand or designer to know the specs and trade-offs involved. Note: I didn't say trust me...:-)

JR
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

We are familiar with most of your concerns. Here's one from me. What percentage of customers do you think understand specs well enough to use them critically? IMO single digit percentage if that.



JR
Yeah-that is one of my "issues" They have NO IDEA how to read a simple graph-such as freq response-yet will talk about as if they know everything.

"YEAH-XYZs 432 sub is flat to 30Hz" Yet it says 30Hz is -3dB (as compared the sensitivity rating)-YET if you look at the graph 30Hz is 9-10dB down from the rated sensitivity.

But reality is so far beyond most people. Truly sad that the "professionals" don't know the difference-or can tell by looking at simple graphs.

That doesn't say much for our educational system.


I guess that is why many manufacturers don't even bother. They just "make up" numbers and market them.

Side by sides are the telling difference-hence the reason we HIGHLY encourage side by sides.

I know some people "diss" that type of thing-but (to me anyway) that is far more telling than trying to compare products on paper with false (or no) data. Who knows where the numbers come from or how it sounds at those "numbers" and so forth.

As long as we all hold hands and sing "kumbaya" everything will be fine and the speakers will do exactly as we "believe" they will.

Polar patterns and what many "believe" is happening is one of my "pet peeves".

Yes polars are a bit harder to read than freq response. But a directivity plot is pretty easy. Of course getting one from the manufacturer (especially if they are trying to hide something) is not easy. And pretty hard to DIY to compare.
 
That doesn't say much for our educational system.

One of my regular classroom assignments is to give the students 30 years of SAT data and ask them to use it to answer the question : was the sat harder or easier when your parents took it?

They have to use their graph to defend a position.

After we get a discussion going, I show them how, by choosing the scale of the axises, I can use the same data to appear to support either position.

It is important to recognize any bias that is built into the process of displaying a data set.
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

Yeah-that is one of my "issues" They have NO IDEA how to read a simple graph-such as freq response-yet will talk about as if they know everything.

"YEAH-XYZs 432 sub is flat to 30Hz" Yet it says 30Hz is -3dB (as compared the sensitivity rating)-YET if you look at the graph 30Hz is 9-10dB down from the rated sensitivity.

But reality is so far beyond most people. Truly sad that the "professionals" don't know the difference-or can tell by looking at simple graphs.

That doesn't say much for our educational system.


I guess that is why many manufacturers don't even bother. They just "make up" numbers and market them.

Side by sides are the telling difference-hence the reason we HIGHLY encourage side by sides.

I know some people "diss" that type of thing-but (to me anyway) that is far more telling than trying to compare products on paper with false (or no) data. Who knows where the numbers come from or how it sounds at those "numbers" and so forth.

As long as we all hold hands and sing "kumbaya" everything will be fine and the speakers will do exactly as we "believe" they will.

Polar patterns and what many "believe" is happening is one of my "pet peeves".

Yes polars are a bit harder to read than freq response. But a directivity plot is pretty easy. Of course getting one from the manufacturer (especially if they are trying to hide something) is not easy. And pretty hard to DIY to compare.

Speaker data is useful to design engineers when designing loudspeakers.

Speaker data used by salesman is mainly an exercise to "blind them with science"

This is far from the largest shortcoming in education... The most important thing we need to teach them is that money doesn't come from the government. The government is just taking money from Peter to give to Paul.

JR
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

From the engineers standpoint, marketing execs exist to make used car salesmen, promoters, and politicians look honest.
I once had an over enthusiastic sales manager and I literally had to follow him around at his first AES show to do damage control and try to explain what he thought he was saying... He had good intentions and was a selling machine but not one ounce of engineering chops in him. Wrong show for him to find his sea legs.


JR
 
Re: More spec sheet nonsense

I once had an over enthusiastic sales manager and I literally had to follow him around at his first AES show to do damage control and try to explain what he thought he was saying... He had good intentions and was a selling machine but not one ounce of engineering chops in him. Wrong show for him to find his sea legs.


JR
I know the feeling. At those types of shows-it is FAR better to say "I don't know" than to spew out incorrect information. There are people there that actually understand what is going on and they see right through it-which makes the company "spewing" look bad-even if the product in question is fine-it presents a bad image to the customer of what the company is "about".