Hi guys. I have lots of subs but they all drop off like a rock below 40hz which is usually no big deal. I am going out with some dub step guys again and rather than taking crazy amounts of 18's to sort of be able to reach down low enough I am looking for something I can crossover around 40hz to catch that last octave. Right now my short list consists of Danley products. Any suggestions? Evan?
Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
- Thread starter Eric Cagle
- Start date
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
The dubsteb folks seems to like anything Funktion one F218,F221 and the infra bass and the weird horn extension... An sub that does very good and not much more than 20-40 would be the CODA sc8.
A choice that you could actually rent most places I would go with the D&b J-sub with some in Infra mode.
mvh
Rasmus
The dubsteb folks seems to like anything Funktion one F218,F221 and the infra bass and the weird horn extension... An sub that does very good and not much more than 20-40 would be the CODA sc8.
A choice that you could actually rent most places I would go with the D&b J-sub with some in Infra mode.
mvh
Rasmus
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
Here's a new Ramsdell sub called a "Chimera" - he mentioned some interesting Greek history type inspiration for the name but sorry I can't remember the story.
XS-21 Chimera 21" Bass Horn - Ramsdell Pro Audio Products
I've heard his other "21" products and the real strength to this new one seems to be below 40hz.
Here's a new Ramsdell sub called a "Chimera" - he mentioned some interesting Greek history type inspiration for the name but sorry I can't remember the story.
XS-21 Chimera 21" Bass Horn - Ramsdell Pro Audio Products
I've heard his other "21" products and the real strength to this new one seems to be below 40hz.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
I would not trust "simple numbers"-when you are looking for specific responses. But that is just me.
I would also be VERY cautious of any sub that suggests an EQ boost in order to get the low freq number they claim. That is all fine-until you get towards the max output area of the sub. If you have already added-say a 6dB bump-then you are going to HAVE to subtract that 6dB from the max available output-at the freq where the bump is. And since that is the main area of interest-the stated max SPL is going to be lower than what you would expect. At higher freq-you should be able to get the stated output-but putting a boost-starts to screw up the numbers.
Or stated another way-lets say the spec is 100dB 1w/1m with 1000 watts continuous. I choose those numbers for "easy math". That would put the max output at 130dB. But if you put a 6dB boost down at say 25Hz, then you are no longer applying 1 watt to the system-but rather 4 watts. So if you refigure the max output, the gain is now 24dB, NOT 30dB. So down low (at 25Hz) the max output is 124dB (assuming the response graph is flat at that point and not starting to roll off already). Now I am assuming that the 6dB boost is used to make the response "flat"-and not to add a "bump" in the low end-most are not used to add a bump-only to make it appear that the cabinet goes lower than it does-with a "nominal" input.
You CANNOT use one set of numbers (say the 1 watt/1M) and then "just add" an extra boost and refigure-assuming nothing else has changed.
Just be careful how the specific graphs are presented-there are all kinds of "games" out there.
Buyer beware is my suggestion.
The one thing I would really be careful of (when talking about subs specifically that go down to around 20Hz) is to SEE A MEASURED RESPONSE curve. There are a lot of claims out there on the "-3dB" point, but when you look at the ACTUAL response, you will see that a number of them (even the famous names) the stated -3dB point is more like -9dB. That is a lot of ground to make up.
I would not trust "simple numbers"-when you are looking for specific responses. But that is just me.
I would also be VERY cautious of any sub that suggests an EQ boost in order to get the low freq number they claim. That is all fine-until you get towards the max output area of the sub. If you have already added-say a 6dB bump-then you are going to HAVE to subtract that 6dB from the max available output-at the freq where the bump is. And since that is the main area of interest-the stated max SPL is going to be lower than what you would expect. At higher freq-you should be able to get the stated output-but putting a boost-starts to screw up the numbers.
Or stated another way-lets say the spec is 100dB 1w/1m with 1000 watts continuous. I choose those numbers for "easy math". That would put the max output at 130dB. But if you put a 6dB boost down at say 25Hz, then you are no longer applying 1 watt to the system-but rather 4 watts. So if you refigure the max output, the gain is now 24dB, NOT 30dB. So down low (at 25Hz) the max output is 124dB (assuming the response graph is flat at that point and not starting to roll off already). Now I am assuming that the 6dB boost is used to make the response "flat"-and not to add a "bump" in the low end-most are not used to add a bump-only to make it appear that the cabinet goes lower than it does-with a "nominal" input.
You CANNOT use one set of numbers (say the 1 watt/1M) and then "just add" an extra boost and refigure-assuming nothing else has changed.
Just be careful how the specific graphs are presented-there are all kinds of "games" out there.
Buyer beware is my suggestion.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
I had one dub artist in particular who was really excited after playing in a venue where I work...with useful extension a few shades below 30. Apparently he didn't notice the hole around 45.
He got to talking, and mentioned a Danley sponsored event he played. Seems Danley has done some work to gain name recognition to that crowd.
I had one dub artist in particular who was really excited after playing in a venue where I work...with useful extension a few shades below 30. Apparently he didn't notice the hole around 45.
He got to talking, and mentioned a Danley sponsored event he played. Seems Danley has done some work to gain name recognition to that crowd.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
A Chimera is a mythical beast that takes the best of many animal and combines it into one body; a step above a centaur. In Greek mythology I believe it is a fire breathing lion with goat feet and a snake/fish tale. /off topic
A Chimera is a mythical beast that takes the best of many animal and combines it into one body; a step above a centaur. In Greek mythology I believe it is a fire breathing lion with goat feet and a snake/fish tale. /off topic
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
Thank you for the info and now almost on topic - I've heard this particular beast and it indeed does have some very lowdown tendencies.
Thank you for the info and now almost on topic - I've heard this particular beast and it indeed does have some very lowdown tendencies.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
The Danley subs I have driven (TH 212 and TH 115) have really impressed me and those aren't the ones known for going particularly low. It was quite a humbling experience to hear a pair of TH 212's go lower and cleaner than a block of 4 of my horn loaded 18's. I am quite shure several of the Danley products will work extremely well for what I am trying to do. I am just wondering what else is out there and looking to hear from some folks who have had some experience below 30hz.
The CODA sc8 and the Chimera 21" look interesting but Ivan is so right about published specs. I am looking for a box that is actually tuned to work well in that range. I can get a little below 30hz at a reasonable volume with my rig but it takes eight 1000 watt 18" drivers and a lot of processing and power to just sort of keep up with one Fussion 3000 top per side without blowing anything up and I still feel like something is missing. I am going to do some listening and measuring before I buy. Danley is at least local to me and I am doing some research on a few of the other offerings to try to give them a listen as well. Thanks for all the information so far!
The Danley subs I have driven (TH 212 and TH 115) have really impressed me and those aren't the ones known for going particularly low. It was quite a humbling experience to hear a pair of TH 212's go lower and cleaner than a block of 4 of my horn loaded 18's. I am quite shure several of the Danley products will work extremely well for what I am trying to do. I am just wondering what else is out there and looking to hear from some folks who have had some experience below 30hz.
The CODA sc8 and the Chimera 21" look interesting but Ivan is so right about published specs. I am looking for a box that is actually tuned to work well in that range. I can get a little below 30hz at a reasonable volume with my rig but it takes eight 1000 watt 18" drivers and a lot of processing and power to just sort of keep up with one Fussion 3000 top per side without blowing anything up and I still feel like something is missing. I am going to do some listening and measuring before I buy. Danley is at least local to me and I am doing some research on a few of the other offerings to try to give them a listen as well. Thanks for all the information so far!
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
I am going to give those guys a call this week. St Petersburg is not out of the realm of possibilities for a drive. Have not found anyone with the CODA system anywhere near me but this is Sunday and all I have is the internet until business hours tomorrow.
I am going to give those guys a call this week. St Petersburg is not out of the realm of possibilities for a drive. Have not found anyone with the CODA system anywhere near me but this is Sunday and all I have is the internet until business hours tomorrow.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
When Bennett Prescott was with ADRaudio, he and Jason Dermer were working on a sub called the JD-21. I got to experience it on a gig with Cole. R. Lofink and it was…moving, to say the least. Below is the spec sheet Bennett listed back in May 2011; I didn't see any actual measurements, but I definitely heard/felt things down low that I had never heard/felt before.
Do note: this sub is not listed on ADRaudio's website (maybe it was renamed?), but I'm sure those involved with it can clarify things.
Direct PDF Download Link: JD21 data.pdf
When Bennett Prescott was with ADRaudio, he and Jason Dermer were working on a sub called the JD-21. I got to experience it on a gig with Cole. R. Lofink and it was…moving, to say the least. Below is the spec sheet Bennett listed back in May 2011; I didn't see any actual measurements, but I definitely heard/felt things down low that I had never heard/felt before.
Do note: this sub is not listed on ADRaudio's website (maybe it was renamed?), but I'm sure those involved with it can clarify things.
Direct PDF Download Link: JD21 data.pdf
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
JD 21 will 'do' 29Hz @ -3dB. Since its maximum SPL borders 140dB within the passband, it would mean at least 135dB @ 29Hz ...
If special requirements dictate usable audio @ 20Hz 'in level', the overall SPL rating after equalization will drop to 120dB range ... probably lower, since excursion becomes a limiting factor. Considering all the facts, OP should seek subwoofer 'tuned' @ 25Hz or lower (ported box), or some other solution ... maybe a band-pass of some sort ...
JD 21 is not yet listed on ADRaudio website because some additional changes are being applied to the box (nothing major).
with respect
P.s.: I hate to manipulate with 'unofficial' TF plots in order to maintain credibility ... However, Bennett's got some from the field which he may want to post.
JD 21 will 'do' 29Hz @ -3dB. Since its maximum SPL borders 140dB within the passband, it would mean at least 135dB @ 29Hz ...
If special requirements dictate usable audio @ 20Hz 'in level', the overall SPL rating after equalization will drop to 120dB range ... probably lower, since excursion becomes a limiting factor. Considering all the facts, OP should seek subwoofer 'tuned' @ 25Hz or lower (ported box), or some other solution ... maybe a band-pass of some sort ...
JD 21 is not yet listed on ADRaudio website because some additional changes are being applied to the box (nothing major).
with respect
P.s.: I hate to manipulate with 'unofficial' TF plots in order to maintain credibility ... However, Bennett's got some from the field which he may want to post.
Mark DeArman
Junior
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
A late follow up to the test drive for the McCauley M421. I did take a number of these boxes and measure their response curves with some different microphones. If the 0dB point is taken to be 30Hz they show a -3dB point of 26.5dB and a -6dB point of 24.5. With almost +6dB 0.5 Oct wide at 70Hz. I will enclose the files here.
[edit]
These were measured at the airport on the ground with a clear 300ft radius in all directions. Each loudspeaker was driven with a channel of a Lab fp14000 so the measurement is actually 4W of input power. No DSP was inline to avoid any AC coupling problems in the low frequency. The SPL was calculated from 30 cycles at each frequency step. The recorded measurement length was set so that at each frequency there would be no bin spill in the FFT which could cause errors in the low frequency.
View attachment REPORT_ M421 Report.pdf
A late follow up to the test drive for the McCauley M421. I did take a number of these boxes and measure their response curves with some different microphones. If the 0dB point is taken to be 30Hz they show a -3dB point of 26.5dB and a -6dB point of 24.5. With almost +6dB 0.5 Oct wide at 70Hz. I will enclose the files here.
[edit]
These were measured at the airport on the ground with a clear 300ft radius in all directions. Each loudspeaker was driven with a channel of a Lab fp14000 so the measurement is actually 4W of input power. No DSP was inline to avoid any AC coupling problems in the low frequency. The SPL was calculated from 30 cycles at each frequency step. The recorded measurement length was set so that at each frequency there would be no bin spill in the FFT which could cause errors in the low frequency.
View attachment REPORT_ M421 Report.pdf
Last edited:
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
From the picture on Ramsdell's website, it looks like the driver is visible right there in the mouth of the horn, which suggests they're using an arrangement similar to a tapped horn. I know Danley has applied for a patent on the TH -- Ivan, can you chime in on the progress with that, and what DSL's approach is going to be with respect to policing its patents?
Full disclosure: I'm a partner in a company which is a Danley dealer.
-Chris
From the picture on Ramsdell's website, it looks like the driver is visible right there in the mouth of the horn, which suggests they're using an arrangement similar to a tapped horn. I know Danley has applied for a patent on the TH -- Ivan, can you chime in on the progress with that, and what DSL's approach is going to be with respect to policing its patents?
Full disclosure: I'm a partner in a company which is a Danley dealer.
-Chris
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
To Eric - Just stopped by the shop to check on a special order of mine. They will be demoing a line array and 2 types of 21's Wednesday.
To Chris - It would be interesting to see how both of these speaker gurus arrived at the various cab designs. I recall watching the progress of this one as it developed and it was very interesting. Unless DSL in like Monsanto and has patented a very basic premiss as opposed to an actual design I can't imagine that any toes have been stepped on.
To Eric - Just stopped by the shop to check on a special order of mine. They will be demoing a line array and 2 types of 21's Wednesday.
To Chris - It would be interesting to see how both of these speaker gurus arrived at the various cab designs. I recall watching the progress of this one as it developed and it was very interesting. Unless DSL in like Monsanto and has patented a very basic premiss as opposed to an actual design I can't imagine that any toes have been stepped on.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
Let me know how that goes. I don't have to be flat to 20hz but I do need to get well below 30hz with some juice left. There is a lot of stuff down there in some of the tunes that I just begin to feel where my system runs out of gas. The lower down I can reach the less the guys tend to push the system.
Let me know how that goes. I don't have to be flat to 20hz but I do need to get well below 30hz with some juice left. There is a lot of stuff down there in some of the tunes that I just begin to feel where my system runs out of gas. The lower down I can reach the less the guys tend to push the system.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
My guess it that it is pretty much a regular ported cabinet-with the driver mounted backwards-works the same way.
The Patent office is taking their own sweet time. Part of the problem is that you have fairly non technical people dealing iwth technical issues. There have been a few "objections" that have come up-but they have been delt with.
There is noting that can be done until the patent is actually issued. But the patent office gives lots of weight to people who have been manufacturing and advertising a particular "technology"-when it comes to arguments.
So we are just waiting.
I won't give any details, but let's say there are some companies that are "in our sights"-when it is time to pull the trigger.
From the little I can tell from the photo of the Ramsdell, I seriously doubt it is a tapped horn. A tapped horn requires a bit of horn to be bale to work-and it does not appear as if there is a horn inside-among other things.
My guess it that it is pretty much a regular ported cabinet-with the driver mounted backwards-works the same way.
The Patent office is taking their own sweet time. Part of the problem is that you have fairly non technical people dealing iwth technical issues. There have been a few "objections" that have come up-but they have been delt with.
There is noting that can be done until the patent is actually issued. But the patent office gives lots of weight to people who have been manufacturing and advertising a particular "technology"-when it comes to arguments.
So we are just waiting.
I won't give any details, but let's say there are some companies that are "in our sights"-when it is time to pull the trigger.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
Just got back from my daily pilgrimage to the Ramsdell shop and my new project is coming right along - YEA I'm EXCITED! - and I asked about the Chimera and if it was a tapped horn - no it's not. Regarding patents and copying things - don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I've had things taken from me and Ramsdell has had things taken from them - things that should have made them plenty of money. Don't shoot me - I'm just the messenger.
Just got back from my daily pilgrimage to the Ramsdell shop and my new project is coming right along - YEA I'm EXCITED! - and I asked about the Chimera and if it was a tapped horn - no it's not. Regarding patents and copying things - don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I've had things taken from me and Ramsdell has had things taken from them - things that should have made them plenty of money. Don't shoot me - I'm just the messenger.
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
Danley TH-115/118 (still waiting to hear the DBH218LC)
Bassmaxx SSP 218 or B-Zero (4 or more in a block)
Void Acoustics Psycho Sub
EAW SB2001
LAB Sub (4 or more in a block)
D&B J-Infra
I do tons of Dubstep shows, large and small. Here's a list of subs that I would be happy to use (in no particular order):
Danley TH-115/118 (still waiting to hear the DBH218LC)
Bassmaxx SSP 218 or B-Zero (4 or more in a block)
Void Acoustics Psycho Sub
EAW SB2001
LAB Sub (4 or more in a block)
D&B J-Infra
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
Eric,
Hoffman's iron law is very much in effect for this circumstance. For a vented box the acoustic efficiency is directly proportional to the box volume, and the cube of F3. This means that cutting a F3 by an octave (e.g. 40Hz to 20Hz) reduces the efficiency by factor of 8. There is a reason that 30Hz is the historical (self-imposed) low boundary for commercial sound reinforcement.
Personally I would recommend against using vented boxes for this. Modern vented boxes are already at the point where the port behavior falls apart before the quality drivers run out of excursion. This will only get worse at lower frequencies. Horns and re-entrant (e.g. tapped) horns have better performance in this regard. The air velocities at their throat, where the opening is smallest, tend to be lower. This is perhaps the biggest advantage of these systems.
Also, if you move to a horn, you should take advantage of their increased sensitivity in the upper bass, and use them for the entire subwoofer bandpass. They will have superior sensitivity to your existing vented cabinets, and require less space. No need to add an extra crossover point, amps, and boxes.
The question then becomes "what do you want to spend?" and "how much room do you have?"
Eric,
Hoffman's iron law is very much in effect for this circumstance. For a vented box the acoustic efficiency is directly proportional to the box volume, and the cube of F3. This means that cutting a F3 by an octave (e.g. 40Hz to 20Hz) reduces the efficiency by factor of 8. There is a reason that 30Hz is the historical (self-imposed) low boundary for commercial sound reinforcement.
Personally I would recommend against using vented boxes for this. Modern vented boxes are already at the point where the port behavior falls apart before the quality drivers run out of excursion. This will only get worse at lower frequencies. Horns and re-entrant (e.g. tapped) horns have better performance in this regard. The air velocities at their throat, where the opening is smallest, tend to be lower. This is perhaps the biggest advantage of these systems.
Also, if you move to a horn, you should take advantage of their increased sensitivity in the upper bass, and use them for the entire subwoofer bandpass. They will have superior sensitivity to your existing vented cabinets, and require less space. No need to add an extra crossover point, amps, and boxes.
The question then becomes "what do you want to spend?" and "how much room do you have?"
Re: Need subs that will do 20hz-40hz
I know a lot of subs that will do 30hz, but 20? Not so much. My short list that comes close would be:
-Clair BT218
-d&b J-infra
-d&b B2 (in infra mode)
-JBL VT4880A (I was very impressed with what a block of 12 of these will do!)
I was very unimpressed with the L'Acoustic SB28 though... They get very chuffy sounding at low frequencies and high SPL.
Evan
I know a lot of subs that will do 30hz, but 20? Not so much. My short list that comes close would be:
-Clair BT218
-d&b J-infra
-d&b B2 (in infra mode)
-JBL VT4880A (I was very impressed with what a block of 12 of these will do!)
I was very unimpressed with the L'Acoustic SB28 though... They get very chuffy sounding at low frequencies and high SPL.
Evan