Paddles for permanent install

Jay Barracato

Jay Barracato

Graduate Student
Jan 11, 2011
1,528
5
38
Solomons MD
One small but nice venue I did a number of shows was rather limited for space on the stage wings (like none) and on several shows the SL monitor world that was already on the small side would sprout a forest of antenna paddles.

Recently they added a new back curtain and a new set of lighting on a front truss.

That got me thinking that possibly a set of broadband paddles could be fairly discretely installed right below the lights and wired to a combiner/ patch rack at monitor world.

I am pretty sure a permanent install like that could be designed for optimal coverage of the stage plus rejection of local interference sources.

I am asking in the big show forum because I wondered if that would fly at that level or if people would be so locked into setting up the usual show that they would pass over the local install.

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Re: Paddles for permanent install

I'm with Scott on the long cable run part. I'm no big boy in the business, but the math I'm running in my head isn't pretty. Let's say normally the antennas at monitor world have 10 feet of cable. I don't know your venue, but I'd guess that the run would be at least 50 feet. At 5 times the distance, that is a loss of what, ~8 dB? Regardless of the lighting fixtures, there's plenty of other RF interference in the house that you might run past.

Of course, when it comes down to it, if you can honestly tell me that you've deployed antennas with good performance, I'd sure as hell take them over having to set up and break down whatever I've got with me.
 
Re: Paddles for permanent install

No real backstage, the racks always ended up behind the monitor board. Last show in there I had 3 channels of mics and 6 of iems right behind me as I did monitors.

I figure 50 feet of cable would be the longest run and that does not seem too unusual for many diversity rigs I have seen on larger stages.

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Re: Paddles for permanent install

After thinking about it a bit, here's my prediction: It'll work just fine. Eventually a touring act will use it but have problems likely the fault of bad frequency coordination or other stupidity. At that point they'll start complaining loudly (facebook and the like) that the venue-provided antennas caused all sorts of problems, "ruined the show", etc. And it'll become hard to convince anybody to try them after that.
 
Re: Paddles for permanent install

Scott Helmke said:
After thinking about it a bit, here's my prediction: It'll work just fine. Eventually a touring act will use it but have problems likely the fault of bad frequency coordination or other stupidity. At that point they'll start complaining loudly (facebook and the like) that the venue-provided antennas caused all sorts of problems, "ruined the show", etc. And it'll become hard to convince anybody to try them after that.
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That's sort of my thinking as well. Like venues that installed big copper snakes (such as our local PAC considered) only to find out that road shows won't use them because the show infrastructure (multi pin connectors, video/data/midi bundled with snake, etc) will not accommodate its use OR that the A1 had a problem with a house snake 20 years ago and now that option is off the table.

The other factor is kind of like the guy that wonders why a BE would rather use the touring X32 or Expression rather than the provider's analog Midas. It doesn't matter how lovingly maintained the provider's console is, the BE's show is already set and ready on the tour desk, he knows it's going to work the same way it did last night. With RF, the band's mixerperson (FOH or mons) knows the gear he's carrying and whatever may/may not be right with it, it's familiar.

Jay, I think the desire is admirable and the cost of a pair of LPDA paddles and some LM400 isn't great in the grand scheme of things. Just don't be surprised if nobody expresses an overwhelming desire to use it.
 
Re: Paddles for permanent install

It's an interesting idea, with a few pitfalls. Cable length isn't is issue - this is a permanent install and you can step up a size or 2 in coax to keep losses down. But somebody patching in incompatible equipment most certainly is an issue. Between ensuring that the antenna system covers a wide enough range of frequencies, ensuring that the system won't be damaged by an IEM transmitter getting plugged into it (or into the wrong set of antennas if you put up seperate transmit and receive units), ensuring any active components have appropriate power (not provided by touring equipment, and properly isolated from any power provided by touring equipment), and the inevitable wear on the patch panel, you've got a bit of work in the system design and upkeep.

And that's without the "soft" issues. One of the reasons that touring acts like to use their own equipment is that they know what condition it is in. They know how well their gear works. Venues install gear ranges from well maintained A-list gear appropriate for the room to 20 year old B-list gear with some portion of the rig semi-functional. Unfortunately, that second group is rathe rmore common than the first. Setting up known, perhaps suboptimal, equipment is often a better choice than trying to troubleshoot a misbehaving venue system. So convincing touring acts to use the venue-provided antenna system is mostly a question of ensuring that it's clearly functional and not going to cause headaches (and that using it is easier than not).
 
Re: Paddles for permanent install

At a week long fair this week I had numerous engineers use my shielded cat5e lines over their own lines for audio (SC48-remote/Midas) racks and DMX lines. With digital the idea of "it works or it doesn't" makes it easier to set it up and try it, then pull out there own if it doesn't work.
 
Re: Paddles for permanent install

Tim McCulloch said:
Jay, I think the desire is admirable and the cost of a pair of LPDA paddles and some LM400 isn't great in the grand scheme of things. Just don't be surprised if nobody expresses an overwhelming desire to use it.
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I think that was my final feeling as well. For the shows that have given it thought and built themselves a workable and effective system are going to just want to use their own system. For the shows that use the plug and hope methods, I am not sure it would really help them either, when things don't work it would just become another step in trouble shooting.
 
Re: Paddles for permanent install

It wouldn't be that hard to install something. Antenna distribution systems are pretty straight forward. Have BNC jacks and patch cables there, ready to patch. If someone wants to use it, great. However, most aren't going to be expecting this to be there, so they'll just set up their own stuff instead of trying something new. If it was more common place it would be used more often. Start a trend!
 
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