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<blockquote data-quote="John Roberts" data-source="post: 96813" data-attributes="member: 126"><p>Re: Property Tax</p><p></p><p>I included parents and even industry in a longer rant about education that I deleted. (this is worthy of it's own thread). </p><p></p><p>Not sure exactly what educational decisions are, but I recall taking standardized tests when I was young puke so these are not new. I will concede that teachers do not have complete control over a students willingness to learn, if you will concede that teacher's effort and ability makes a difference. If the teachers can't make a difference we need to tear the whole thing down and start over. </p><p></p><p>A teacher is a lot like a coach...They not only provide the knowledge needed to advance, but "inspire" the students/players to drink from the well of knowledge. I only pay attention to basketball but there is no accident that teams under coaches like Phil Jackson and Popovich who have the talent to lead and inspire do well. By the time players reach that level in sport, they all have the physical tools, it is just a matter of directing that talent. Firing coaches may seem like a scapegoat, but firing the players leaves holes in the team. Just like sending children away for not learning is not a solution. </p><p></p><p>Not sure what game you are talking about, education, industry, life? In industry and life, it isn't just about attaining a position, it's about creating value to keep that position. Tenure may make sense for judges so they can be free to make unpopular (non political) decisions, but teachers should be fired like bad coaches if they don't create value in their students. </p><p></p><p>I don't have a degree, but recall when hiring engineers I was more impressed by what they did before, than any wall paper they had. I have hired junior engineers with degrees that were far from the sharpest sticks in the bunch, and non degreed individuals that had real talent. A degree used to demonstrate that the student had the discipline to matriculate for several years and learn the minimum course material. </p><p></p><p>These days I am not so sure. It seems more people are attending college and learning less. Yes, a degree is often a criteria for gaining employment at large soulless corporations. :-( </p><p></p><p>While i am biased by my own life experience, I have encountered examples of both. Degreed engineers with little hands on knowledge and self taught technician engineers who were a little weak on esoteric theory but knew which end of a soldering iron gets hot. I would much rather guide the self taught engineer over a hard spot, than explain something that should be painfully obvious. (note: during my unfinished matriculation I had lab courses to presumably give a hands on component but these are never the same as years of hands on experience. ) </p><p></p><p>amen... Education is not a zero sum game... if you share what you know with another you have two heads full of knowledge. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I understand that you must play the hand you are dealt. My argument is not with individual teachers, but higher up the food chain when the administrata seem incapable or unwilling to tackle the difficult issues. These issues are not just inside the classroom but in the community too. </p><p></p><p>If we don't measure it we don't know where we stand, which looks like we need to improve the current system. If you want to argue that having students learn just the standard course material is not enough we can discuss that, after they master the standard course material. </p><p></p><p>I have been following this for years and teachers must be frustrated by the new improved teaching strategy du jour (I recall "new math" back in the 60s). NCLB is very unpopular with educators, but is a long term process that can't change things overnight. The new improved education strategy this year is some different standardized curriculum. Ironic, after the new curriculum was announced they discovered that the teachers didn't learn all of it in their college studies. </p><p></p><p>This is too important for us to throw up our hands and say it's too hard. </p><p></p><p>It is amusing and depressing when we see these street interviews of young people on the street who know J-Lo's latest perfume scent, but not even basic geography or history, or... A witness in a high profile court case that can not even read cursive. This is 2013, we have so much better information tools available today than when I was a kid, we should have gotten on top of this by now. </p><p></p><p>jay: thank your for your effort in the good fight. </p><p></p><p>JR</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="John Roberts, post: 96813, member: 126"] Re: Property Tax I included parents and even industry in a longer rant about education that I deleted. (this is worthy of it's own thread). Not sure exactly what educational decisions are, but I recall taking standardized tests when I was young puke so these are not new. I will concede that teachers do not have complete control over a students willingness to learn, if you will concede that teacher's effort and ability makes a difference. If the teachers can't make a difference we need to tear the whole thing down and start over. A teacher is a lot like a coach...They not only provide the knowledge needed to advance, but "inspire" the students/players to drink from the well of knowledge. I only pay attention to basketball but there is no accident that teams under coaches like Phil Jackson and Popovich who have the talent to lead and inspire do well. By the time players reach that level in sport, they all have the physical tools, it is just a matter of directing that talent. Firing coaches may seem like a scapegoat, but firing the players leaves holes in the team. Just like sending children away for not learning is not a solution. Not sure what game you are talking about, education, industry, life? In industry and life, it isn't just about attaining a position, it's about creating value to keep that position. Tenure may make sense for judges so they can be free to make unpopular (non political) decisions, but teachers should be fired like bad coaches if they don't create value in their students. I don't have a degree, but recall when hiring engineers I was more impressed by what they did before, than any wall paper they had. I have hired junior engineers with degrees that were far from the sharpest sticks in the bunch, and non degreed individuals that had real talent. A degree used to demonstrate that the student had the discipline to matriculate for several years and learn the minimum course material. These days I am not so sure. It seems more people are attending college and learning less. Yes, a degree is often a criteria for gaining employment at large soulless corporations. :-( While i am biased by my own life experience, I have encountered examples of both. Degreed engineers with little hands on knowledge and self taught technician engineers who were a little weak on esoteric theory but knew which end of a soldering iron gets hot. I would much rather guide the self taught engineer over a hard spot, than explain something that should be painfully obvious. (note: during my unfinished matriculation I had lab courses to presumably give a hands on component but these are never the same as years of hands on experience. ) amen... Education is not a zero sum game... if you share what you know with another you have two heads full of knowledge. I understand that you must play the hand you are dealt. My argument is not with individual teachers, but higher up the food chain when the administrata seem incapable or unwilling to tackle the difficult issues. These issues are not just inside the classroom but in the community too. If we don't measure it we don't know where we stand, which looks like we need to improve the current system. If you want to argue that having students learn just the standard course material is not enough we can discuss that, after they master the standard course material. I have been following this for years and teachers must be frustrated by the new improved teaching strategy du jour (I recall "new math" back in the 60s). NCLB is very unpopular with educators, but is a long term process that can't change things overnight. The new improved education strategy this year is some different standardized curriculum. Ironic, after the new curriculum was announced they discovered that the teachers didn't learn all of it in their college studies. This is too important for us to throw up our hands and say it's too hard. It is amusing and depressing when we see these street interviews of young people on the street who know J-Lo's latest perfume scent, but not even basic geography or history, or... A witness in a high profile court case that can not even read cursive. This is 2013, we have so much better information tools available today than when I was a kid, we should have gotten on top of this by now. jay: thank your for your effort in the good fight. JR [/QUOTE]
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