Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

J

Jason Raboin

Sophomore
Apr 6, 2011
224
2
18
Northampton, MA
I'm in Sao Paulo, Brazil on tour. I had a new experience last night that I would like to see if anyone else has had or can explain. The theatre we are in has a contract with a local sound company. They oversee the DV-DOSC install and brought in a Profile for me. They told me that I was not allowed to use outputs for recording. This was not a venue, promoter, crew, or union rule. It was the sound company who was dictating this. I argued that how I use the piece of equipment that I rent from them was none of their business, as long as it did not harm the equipment. I won in the end, but was really annoyed to have to get our promoter to call the owner of the sound company and get permission.

Can anyone explain the rationale?
 
Re: Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

Did you break out the "Do You Know Who I Am?"

Tell me you're back soon, I could really use you 4/3/14.


Jason Raboin said:
I'm in Sao Paulo, Brazil on tour. I had a new experience last night that I would like to see if anyone else has had or can explain. The theatre we are in has a contract with a local sound company. They oversee the DV-DOSC install and brought in a Profile for me. They told me that I was not allowed to use outputs for recording. This was not a venue, promoter, crew, or union rule. It was the sound company who was dictating this. I argued that how I use the piece of equipment that I rent from them was none of their business, as long as it did not harm the equipment. I won in the end, but was really annoyed to have to get our promoter to call the owner of the sound company and get permission.

Can anyone explain the rationale?
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Re: Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

Thats utter nonsense. Glad you won out.

Its none of their business what you use it for when you hire it. I mean, you can break it if you want too - the hire agreement will state that you agree to pay for it if you do...

It would be like a rental car company saying you couldn't drive in reverse...
 
Re: Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

Chris Johnson said:
Thats utter nonsense. Glad you won out.

Its none of their business what you use it for when you hire it. I mean, you can break it if you want too - the hire agreement will state that you agree to pay for it if you do...

It would be like a rental car company saying you couldn't drive in reverse...
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True, but a rental car company usually does verify that you have a valid drivers license before letting you drive off in their car so Frank's point regarding copyright licensing could be relevant. Or maybe that's a US-centric perspective where it's all too easy to see the provider geting caught up in any resulting copyright infringement actions on the basis of their 'facilitating' the recording.
 
Re: Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

Chris Johnson said:
Thats utter nonsense. Glad you won out.

Its none of their business what you use it for when you hire it. I mean, you can break it if you want too - the hire agreement will state that you agree to pay for it if you do...

It would be like a rental car company saying you couldn't drive in reverse...
Click to expand...

Car rental companies can restrict the things you do with their vehicles. Read the fine print some time. Most will state you can't use it for passengers for hire. That's right along the same lines as you can't use a mixer for recording tracks. Neither really is different than normal use from a functional standpoint of the equipment.

However, I do agree that in the sound world of things, restrictions such as this are far less common.
 
Re: Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

Sure, I'm not saying that they are not within their rights to restrict its use. Of course they can, just like a car rental company.

I'm just saying it is ridiculous that they actually did try to do so in this way. I certainly wouldn't tolerate it.

Recording with a profile certainly falls within the normal realms of what you would rent such a console to do. Even if it was a copyright issue, the OP was working with the Artist (and therefore at least partial copyright owners)!
 
Re: Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

Brian jojade said:
Car rental companies can restrict the things you do with their vehicles. Read the fine print some time. Most will state you can't use it for passengers for hire. That's right along the same lines as you can't use a mixer for recording tracks. Neither really is different than normal use from a functional standpoint of the equipment.

However, I do agree that in the sound world of things, restrictions such as this are far less common.
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Jason wasn't their client, he wasn't paying for the PA or console rental. Considering that he's recording his artist for her exclusive use (and many of the songs are hers) I'd say tell the hire compay to fuck themselves. If they try to stop me or impede the show in any way, my artist would not perform and the real PA customer, the promoter, will have to pay the full fee.

How is this situation significantly different from "only our staff operates the console?"
 
Re: Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

I got a little more information from the promoter. The promoter owns the venue and 6-8 in Brazil, mostly in shopping malls for some reason. They have a contract with this sound company to provide audio in their venues, all of which have nice installed systems. The contract for the house system, which is DV-DOSC and a PM-5D, does actually include a clause saying that any use of the system for recording would incur a fee. My promoter rep. said that it was an oversight on their part to leave that in the contract. The sound company is the biggest player in Brazil, and try to throw their weight around, making sure that if there is money to be made, they get a piece of it.

Where it gets murky is that I had them bring in a Profile. This was a separate transaction, and while the check did not come directly from my artist, on a sold out show with back end points, she was paying for around 85% of it. Regardless of who was paying for it, I hold fast to the notion that it is mine to do with what I want, as long as I don't break it. I didn't sign any contract with a provider, nor would I.

Finally, what's odd is that they didn't say anything when I hooked up my Marantz recorder to archive the show for Joan, and only made an issue when I wanted to give a feed to a tv show. Joan was doing a funny thing where she invited a senator up on stage to sing with her. He was terrible, and that was the point. It was a life long wish of his, and a TV show was there to record it. By the time we got approval it was too close to show time so now I have to go into my show recording, export that song, and send it to them via FTP site. Thank you for creating more work for me sound company!
 
Re: Provider dictating use of console - a new one for me.

Jason Raboin said:
The sound company is the biggest player in Brazil, and try to throw their weight around, making sure that if there is money to be made, they get a piece of it.

what's odd is that they didn't say anything when I hooked up my Marantz recorder to archive the show for Joan, and only made an issue when I wanted to give a feed to a tv show.
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Given my, admittedly years ago, experience in similar situations I thing the two excerpts from your post are the most relevant.

As the biggest player in the business in Brazil, yes they do like to throw their weight around. And, they might well have a contentiou$ relationship with the TV network involved.
 
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