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<blockquote data-quote="Dick Rees" data-source="post: 34626" data-attributes="member: 16">Re: PsychoacousticsIn this specific case the delay will (by definition) be inaudible.10dB in this case is a huge amount of sound.&nbsp; We&#039;re talking about peak sound levels of around 85dB @ the mix position.......more reinforcement than amplification.&nbsp; And yes, I would consider this to be both musically and socially &quot;intimate&quot; sound.Textbook says that delay becomes audible as an effect at around 10ms.&nbsp; In my experimentation I begin to notice it a bit around 8ms with 11ms my personal threshhold of &quot;effectiveness&quot;.&nbsp; In my application, the delay difference involved between the players position and the secondary (reinforcing) wave is well under 8 ms, most often around 3ms.&nbsp; In my experience with &quot;psycoacoustics&quot; a ms here or there is forgivable.&nbsp; Also please note that within the 10dB window you cite (from Haas) it is not so much the volume of the sound(s) that assigns the &quot;position/presence&quot; to the source but the arrival time.&nbsp; A quieter source arriving prior to a &quot;second wave&quot; will be perceived as the original sound thereby appearing to the listener to come from said original source......and location.&nbsp; This is the desired result.So if the speakers are 6 feet ahead of the performer(s), a delay time of approximately 8.5ms (5.32ms to get 6&#039; back + 3ms to give the original sound wave perceived precedence) should yield the desired result.We&#039;re dealing with perception here, so straight out measurements take a back seat.&nbsp; As long as the sound is perceived to be emanating from the original source/position, we have achieved the objective.&nbsp; Again I state that in my case I am dealing mainly with acoustic music, jazz and bluegrass......NOT rock.DR</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dick Rees, post: 34626, member: 16"] Re: Psychoacoustics In this specific case the delay will (by definition) be inaudible. 10dB in this case is a huge amount of sound. We're talking about peak sound levels of around 85dB @ the mix position.......more reinforcement than amplification. And yes, I would consider this to be both musically and socially "intimate" sound. Textbook says that delay becomes audible as an effect at around 10ms. In my experimentation I begin to notice it a bit around 8ms with 11ms my personal threshhold of "effectiveness". In my application, the delay difference involved between the players position and the secondary (reinforcing) wave is well under 8 ms, most often around 3ms. In my experience with "psycoacoustics" a ms here or there is forgivable. Also please note that within the 10dB window you cite (from Haas) it is not so much the volume of the sound(s) that assigns the "position/presence" to the source but the arrival time. A quieter source arriving prior to a "second wave" will be perceived as the original sound thereby appearing to the listener to come from said original source......and location. This is the desired result. So if the speakers are 6 feet ahead of the performer(s), a delay time of approximately 8.5ms (5.32ms to get 6' back + 3ms to give the original sound wave perceived precedence) should yield the desired result. We're dealing with perception here, so straight out measurements take a back seat. As long as the sound is [b]perceived[/b] to be emanating from the original source/position, we have achieved the objective. Again I state that in my case I am dealing mainly with acoustic music, jazz and bluegrass......NOT rock. DR [/QUOTE]

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