Real world tuning in a theatre

Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

Since the sources (sides and middle) are so far separated-what does the response look like at seats that are say 30' from the measurement position?

The problem with separated sources is that when you get it right a one position-the delays for other positions will have to be different.

There is no way (that I am aware of anyway) to get it right at all of the seats at the same time.

It is a good learning practice to get one position lined up, but sometimes when doing that-other positions actually get worse.

It is very important to look at listening positions all around the room.

And also why it is important to use as few loudspeakers as possible to cover a particular area.

In the game of loudspeakers- less is more.

My first approach is to see if I can cover the area with the needed SPL with a single loudspeaker. If so-then that is what I do-and don't have to worry about different signal arrivals from different loudspeakers at different seats..
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

I know what you mean ivan so i try to minmize the damage to the source signal (impossible but still you have to do something) .
Al trough the the measurement i keep walking the room and listen to the sound at as much positions as possible . If i do not hear problems i move on and continue measuring .
If do hear problems i try to locate the cause of what i hear via measurements and try to minimize the effect . Sometimes it works sometimes not .
All depends on the time i have doing the tuning and what kind of system i have to tune .
This time i was lucky the system being a meyer set-up . By lucky i mean the phase respons of al conventional cabs matches between models most of the time . I only had to alter the respons of these cabs because the Mina centre cluster has a different phase respons (all line array from meyer differ in the phase respons from the conventional cabs with the exception of the cq cab which is again different from the rest of them) .


The 1 source idea would be nice but the set-up has been in this theatre for 2 years in the present config . The mina HP500 thing was added about 2 years ago .

I had to give the lead technician a short coarse in doing measurements so we did a tuning of that set . Gave me nice data he's got a start for doing measurements him self and the theatre has a tuned set-up .
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

I am a HUGE fan of multi mic setups when doing alignment. That way you don't have to move any mics-just look at the other ones and then go back to others.

I have seen some people start at one position-make it right-move to another-make it right and keep going till they have gone all around the room.

THE PROBLEM is that rarely do they GO BACK to the starting positions to see what the later adjustments have done to the early positions.

You can really mess up a system by doing it that way. Again-hence the multi mic setup-saves a lot of time and enables a much better setup.

It is also a good idea doe captures of all of the mic positions when you are finished and overlay them-so see if you see and "trends" that you may have missed (done it many times myself). It seems easier to see in a multitrace screen.
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

My present smaart rig only allows 3 mics (so 3 mics were used for this tuning) and my SIM3 only can take 8 mics .
I currently use 6 DPA 4007's matched within a 1/4db so it's not a problem of using multiple mics .
Most of the time it's a problem of time (as is phase both a problem or challenge timewise :-) .
Lately most of the time the people from managment companies think they can have a superb sound(ing) set-up for a buck and a half which only takes 2 hours to set-up and can provide high quality sound for 10 to 20.000 people .
And who needs a sys tech anyway . They coast money so no need for them......duh that's not going to work but if you tell them that no job next year if you're not carfull....
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

I think Timo's Blog is awesome! Atleast I can relate much more to the compromises,challenges and solutions (right and wrong) that Timo faces and do, than most of others who post Online (blog or article etc). It takes gut's to post these things, but IMO provides a vital information link to, how you could do a difference with a measurement system, especially in a non optimal situation. Ivan's comments are truly appreciated and spot on as always. Doing a blog post, thats easy and "fun" to read and shows the points you like to show, is hard. You will almost all ways miss something or not present all data, but lucky for us we are not writers :) I think Timo did a great job here, keeping it short, clear and shows he did a difference (that the client liked). Right or wrong, it really proves a point that there are a huge knowledge gap in the industry (at least on our side of the pond) to what you can and can't do with speakers and that you can actually get something out of hiring a good systech (with a measurement system, that he knows how to use). I take my hat off for the house tech at the theater, for acknowledging that he did not have the skills him self and hired Timo for a short course in measurement and re optimizing of the system. In the financial hard times we are in now, Its a positive to have the option to "reshuffle the deck" if there are no money for new equipment or extensive labor cost's.
/R
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

Rasmus Rosenberg said:
I think Timo's Blog is awesome! Atleast I can relate much more to the compromises,challenges and solutions (right and wrong) that Timo faces and do, than most of others who post Online (blog or article etc). It takes gut's to post these things, but IMO provides a vital information link to, how you could do a difference with a measurement system, especially in a non optimal situation. Ivan's comments are truly appreciated and spot on as always. Doing a blog post, thats easy and "fun" to read and shows the points you like to show, is hard. You will almost all ways miss something or not present all data, but lucky for us we are not writers :) I think Timo did a great job here, keeping it short, clear and shows he did a difference (that the client liked). Right or wrong, it really proves a point that there are a huge knowledge gap in the industry (at least on our side of the pond) to what you can and can't do with speakers and that you can actually get something out of hiring a good systech (with a measurement system, that he knows how to use). I take my hat off for the house tech at the theater, for acknowledging that he did not have the skills him self and hired Timo for a short course in measurement and re optimizing of the system. In the financial hard times we are in now, Its a positive to have the option to "reshuffle the deck" if there are no money for new equipment or extensive labor cost's.
/R
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I agree. It is very hard to write about all the processes that you go through when doing an alignment. And they don't all come through in the text.

I applaud anybody doing what Timo is. It is NOT easy-and real easy for other to critique. And that was not my intention-but rather to add to the "process".

There is one class/workshop/seminar etc that I wish SOMEBODY would do. I realize it would NOT be easy-but I think would be very benifical to all that attend.

Take a decent sie room 2-4000 seats with a system that has a number of elements to align. Say a main center cluster with down fills- exploded sidefills, frontfills, overbalcony delays, underbalcony delays and subs.

Basically the class would be a step by step (with lots of interaction/discussion as to why certain adjustments were made) process that all would participate in.

When you have such a system there are lots of compromises to be made. So discussion as to why. Delay times-highpass filter settings, "special eq", levels and so forth.

Maybe even do it a couple of different ways with different compromises and then listen to the results.

Of course a decent sized multimic setup would be needed-and the class would have to be a couple of days.

I think EVERYBODY in attendance would walk away with some new understandings.

I have suggested this to a number of different people who do classes-but don't have interest yet.

We can always dream can't we.
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

Ivan Beaver said:
It is NOT easy-and real easy for other to critique. And that was not my intention-but rather to add to the "process".
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Critique that gives a 6db addition is always welcome specialy coming from somebody like you .

A large set-up tuning seminar would be something that would get me travelling again to be a part of it . I'm afraid that the costs of something like that is holding a lot of people back in organizing it.....
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

Timo Beckman said:
Critique that gives a 6db addition is always welcome specialy coming from somebody like you .

A large set-up tuning seminar would be something that would get me travelling again to be a part of it . I'm afraid that the costs of something like that is holding a lot of people back in organizing it.....
Click to expand...

I can see all sorts of "issues" with it.

It would likely have to be an already installed system. What the "customer" would get out of it would be a highly optimized system-which would be a good thing.

But I can see where the "discussions" would go astray-into critiquing the actual install-and not focusing on the task at hand-making the most out of it.

What if the cabinets aren't aimed where some people think they should? Do you use a DSP that has all pass filters in it? What if most of the people attending do not use all pass filters or have them available? What do THEY do in that situation?

And it goes on and on.

And even if there is not a "conclusive" result-A LOT could be learned by such an experience.

I know the way I would approach such a room-and the general compromises I accept-but would love to hear what others-in the exact same situation-the same loudspeakers etc would do.

And do you use a room that has a very designed loudspeaker system with good acoustics? or one that has a system that isn't so good, and some bad reflections?

I can see a lot of "well if they had used XYZ speakers we would not have this problem.

You have to ask yourself "What am I here to do TODAY". NOT-well I would change this and that-add some things and so forth.

And of course there is the install side of things that allow much more time for setup than a portable situation. So those would have to be separate classes. Maybe the portable situation in a large room with different types of systems. Line array-point source, with both well behaved and poor examples of each (but what manufacturer wants to be the "poor example"?)

It would take some REAL organization to pull it off-but I bet-with proper advertising-you could get some "heavy hitters" in the alignment world there. And if everybody could put their egos in their back posckets-we could all have some fun.
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

Never say never, Im sure that workshops/ seminars like you describe are coming around, All though I would aim for 1000-2000 seater venue, for starters, as I think it would broaden the people you could sell it too. The issues I find hardest is to sell it right. It seems very hard to sell non product specified training? And im actually quite puzzled why? or well Its not hard to understand why, you buy a product and want to know how to use it, but I for one would think people would become much better if they learned the "universal skill and techniques" that you could apply to any speakers regardless of brand. Im not saying it should be one or the other I think they could co exist, but guess thats why people rather want to spend money directly to the Brand name training.

Also there is such a huge gap in the knowledge in "the industry" (well at least in my country) How/why/why not, speakers work and play together. So its really surprisingly hard to make people, aware of its there own fault (there decisions) that are to blame, not the speaker brand, console brand etc. Funny how its much easier to buy new speakers, than to understand what you have :) But most annoying; that you with a little help you could actually go a very long way, in having a better understanding of what goes on and be a much better sound technician.

Next issue is by fare finding qualified instructors, that have time to teach. Again I think its way more difficult to be able to use "any" speaker than being an expert in one system or brand. Also someone who can direct the teaching to the local marked (and language) and size gig that the participants can relate to. (yes its fun to hear about how you install cruise ships, but how the h... does that relate to my sh.. club and vise versa).

Next is finding people that have time (and money) to attend. All major rental houses and most freelance techs I have talked to are cool with one or maybe a two day seminar, any thing over they have a hard time to justify (they have a business to run, and a lot in the industry just don't earn enough money that they can afford training). And the sad fact is just that, unless you have a very well prepared and smooth running seminar, one day is just never enough.
When thats said, how ever, The amount of people out there that could benefit, and learn a huge lot from just a one day seminar, Is a really big marked.

Any way If any one have any Ideas too: how the heck, it would be possible to corrdinate and sell non brand specified training?, or have any interest in getting some? Or feel capable of instructing such training? Feel free to comment or PM me.
/R
 
Re: Real world tuning in a theatre

I'd love to attend something like what you suggest, but I think the challenging part would be how to finance it.

I personally wouldn't mind if a manufacturer wished to support this, I believe I'm able to see through marketing speak and look directly at the products in question. But it would increase the noise floor on otherwise busy day(s).

With a good plan and some target goals defined, we could just rent a venue and some gear, set it up, tune it and discuss our decisions/results. Gear and venues are available if we plan ahead, but we would need cash to pull this off and a good instructor.

I think we need a set of defined goals. Lets say that our primary goal was to run through a design and alignment of a system for a given space, and the compromises/decisions/challenges involved in doing that. Maybve something like this:

- Get a instructor with extensive knowledge of system designs and alignments.
- Find a venue that we could do this in.
- Make a design for it using available products. This could be a forum discussion where we start with drawings/measurements of the venue and make a design based on what kind of performance our system should have and what gear is available. This would of course be easier if we decide to stick with one speaker manufacturer, or else our choices would be very huge. In real life you usually do this with a limited selection of tools(speakers) anyway, so it could actually give us some good insights in how to compromise for a given challenge.
- Go into the venue and set it up, verify our coverage and adjust for unknown/unforeseen issues.
- Align it and discuss our end result.

This could be done in two days of field work if we do our design in advance on line.

And this is of course IMHO and how I would like it to be done. I'm sure there are several ways that we could do this, but I offer this as a suggestion for discussion :)
 
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