So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens

Lance Richens

Sophomore
Dec 2, 2012
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Eastern Utah
Our church (Ashley Calvary Chapel) in Vernal, Utah is in the midst of building a new building. We definitely want to do a line array, preferably with a flown sub woofer. Funds are tight so we cannot pop for an entirely new array. What we have now is Peavey Versarray mkII's, 3 per side and two MRX 118 subs per side sitting on the floor. I might be able to swing a set of flyable 18's (JBL VRX or something similar), and I'd like to be able to hang the existing versarray's below them. I'm guessing a good fabricator could make some bracket's to facilitate this. I've not heard a system with a flown Subwoofer. Thoughts vs ground stacked subs?
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

We definitely want to do a line array, preferably with a flown sub woofer.
(Why must it be a line array, what if there was a better tool for the space....?)

I'd like to be able to hang the existing versarray's below them.
I wouldn't recommend anything but the manufacturers proper hardware, and design over people's heads.

I'm guessing a good fabricator could make some bracket's to facilitate this.
Wrong, unless you plan to get it stamped by an engineer and even then....

Please don't cludge something together, especially when you are launching on a fresh building....
Hire someone to design it properly, professionally, safely.
What is the saying, buy once , cry once....
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Shane Presley said:
We definitely want to do a line array, preferably with a flown sub woofer.
(Why must it be a line array, what if there was a better tool for the space....?)

I'd like to be able to hang the existing versarray's below them.
I wouldn't recommend anything but the manufacturers proper hardware, and design over people's heads.

I'm guessing a good fabricator could make some bracket's to facilitate this.
Wrong, unless you plan to get it stamped by an engineer and even then....

Please don't cludge something together, especially when you are launching on a fresh building....
Hire someone to design it properly, professionally, safely.
What is the saying, buy once , cry once....
Click to expand...

This, and that was the nice version...
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens said:
Our church (Ashley Calvary Chapel) in Vernal, Utah is in the midst of building a new building. We definitely want to do a line array, preferably with a flown sub woofer. Funds are tight so we cannot pop for an entirely new array. What we have now is Peavey Versarray mkII's, 3 per side and two MRX 118 subs per side sitting on the floor. I might be able to swing a set of flyable 18's (JBL VRX or something similar), and I'd like to be able to hang the existing versarray's below them. I'm guessing a good fabricator could make some bracket's to facilitate this. I've not heard a system with a flown Subwoofer. Thoughts vs ground stacked subs?
Click to expand...

The absolute best use of your funds if you are constructing a new space is to make sure that architectural issues are taken care of. This means hiring a qualified acoustical consultant. You also want to make sure that minor details like having sufficiently rated fly points in the proper locations, and having conduit from the amplifier location to the arrays are taken care of.

When you're building a new space, the equipment (which might be in use for 10-20 years) is really much lower priority than the space itself (which will likely be in use for 25+ years)
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens said:
Our church (Ashley Calvary Chapel) in Vernal, Utah is in the midst of building a new building. We definitely want to do a line array, preferably with a flown sub woofer. Funds are tight so we cannot pop for an entirely new array. What we have now is Peavey Versarray mkII's, 3 per side and two MRX 118 subs per side sitting on the floor. I might be able to swing a set of flyable 18's (JBL VRX or something similar), and I'd like to be able to hang the existing versarray's below them. I'm guessing a good fabricator could make some bracket's to facilitate this. I've not heard a system with a flown Subwoofer. Thoughts vs ground stacked subs?
Click to expand...

Hi Lance -

Will 3 Versarray per side cover the vertical audience geometry of the new space?

I would find a flyable sub and hang it BEHIND the PA long before I'd kludge something else together or allow anyone to do so without professional structural engineering (drawings, stamps, possibly destructive testing).

Now for a small bit of scolding (and I know this was probably above your sphere of influence, but...): Planning for mission critical aspects of contemporary worship - the sound & lights & video & band support - should have been done as an integral part of the planning and design of the new auditorium. I hope the same lack of foresight did not extend to the electrical service or HVAC... but the critical aspects of your services are the pastoral message and the music ministry. Really, from 1030 am til noon on Sunday, what else is there?
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens said:
Our church (Ashley Calvary Chapel) in Vernal, Utah is in the midst of building a new building. We definitely want to do a line array, preferably with a flown sub woofer. Funds are tight so we cannot pop for an entirely new array. What we have now is Peavey Versarray mkII's, 3 per side and two MRX 118 subs per side sitting on the floor. I might be able to swing a set of flyable 18's (JBL VRX or something similar), and I'd like to be able to hang the existing versarray's below them. I'm guessing a good fabricator could make some bracket's to facilitate this. I've not heard a system with a flown Subwoofer. Thoughts vs ground stacked subs?
Click to expand...
Is a "line array" the proper choice (in terms of coverage) for the room?

Besides the fact you already have it-what is so "special" about a line array that makes it your choice.

I assume a DESIGN has been done to ensure proper coverage.

ANYWAY-to you basic question. There are several differences between flown and floor subs (assuming they can be flown safely).

Flown subs will provide a much more even coverage (SPL wise) to the room. The reason is basic inverse square law.

When flown the people in the back are essentially no further away from the subs. However the people in front are often much further away.

So this will lower the level to the front people without changing the level to the people in the rear. So the balance of front to rear is much better.

Subs on the ground WILL be louder for the people up front. This makes it real hard to have a system that is properly balanced (tonality wise)-from front to rear. If you want to maintain the same "spectral balance", then the PA will have to be louder up front to be balanced with the subs.

This makes it REAL HARD to maintain a typical SPL spread of +/-3dB in the room.

Of course some people like the subs to kick harder in the front-others do not.

It really depends on what the DESIGN goal is and what you are trying to "achieve" with the system and its performance.

Without knowing that-there is no way anybody can say one method is better than the other.

Personally-in venues such as Churches, theaters, and other "general" performance spaces I ALWAYS try to fly the subs-if space and structure permits. I assume you have already had the building structure checked out for the loads you are going to place on it?

In nightclubs, it is generally better to put the subs on the ground-because this is what people expect-and you get a bit more "tactile" feel from the subs on the ground vs flown.

It is not a matter what method is better-but what is better for a PARTICULAR situation. We don't know enough about your situation to make any useful suggestions.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

I do appreciate the comments. You know how these projects go, the sound is always left at the bottom of the list of importance. I talked to Pastor again today. My main concern at this time is to make sure we have fly points installed so that we can hang the speakers later if we end up not being able to buy them at this point. I can always ground stack some of my srx rig to get by. We have a 7 piece worship group that plays the contemporary worship heard on K-love such as Lincoln Brewster, David Crowder, Newsboys, etc, so we need a pretty decent sounding rig. We will also be hosting many "semi-pro" Christian artist's as there routing brings them between Denver & Salt Lake City.
As far as this needing to be a line array setup, I am open to suggestion. The sanctuary is going to be 70'x70'. The stage will be 25' of the room (25x70). I'm told the walls are going to be at 18', and then the roof angles into the traditional cathedral shape. We are going to have to do something with acoustic baffling I'm sure. I'd love to bring a professional in to be able to recommend what we will need, but I'm not sure if we can. Any idea what someone qualified would charge? My plans at the moment are a VRX 4 hang with top mounted 18" subs.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens said:
I do appreciate the comments. You know how these projects go, the sound is always left at the bottom of the list of importance. I talked to Pastor again today. My main concern at this time is to make sure we have fly points installed so that we can hang the speakers later if we end up not being able to buy them at this point. I can always ground stack some of my srx rig to get by. We have a 7 piece worship group that plays the contemporary worship heard on K-love such as Lincoln Brewster, David Crowder, Newsboys, etc, so we need a pretty decent sounding rig. We will also be hosting many "semi-pro" Christian artist's as there routing brings them between Denver & Salt Lake City.
As far as this needing to be a line array setup, I am open to suggestion. The sanctuary is going to be 70'x70'. The stage will be 25' of the room (25x70). I'm told the walls are going to be at 18', and then the roof angles into the traditional cathedral shape. We are going to have to do something with acoustic baffling I'm sure. I'd love to bring a professional in to be able to recommend what we will need, but I'm not sure if we can. Any idea what someone qualified would charge? My plans at the moment are a VRX 4 hang with top mounted 18" subs.
Click to expand...

I'd find a better way to spend $13k on speakers. This application is a perfect example of one that does NOT need a vertical array.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens said:
As far as this needing to be a line array setup, I am open to suggestion. .
Click to expand...
It is really interesting to me how many people say "I want a line array" yet have no idea WHY they want a line-or what the differences are (pros and cons) between different types of systems.

I bet most people could not tell you any of the advantages of a line array-and the ones that could come up with some sort of "marketing answer"-such as 3dB/doubling of distance have NO idea that this is VERY freq specific and totally based on the SIZE of the array-and they don't have a clue why a "mini" line array simply does not work (as sold by the marketing dept)-except as a "feel good" approach for people who don't have a lot of money to get a larger one.

As with anything, the FIRST thing you need to do is to define your actual needs-THEN look for a solution to fulfill those needs. Not try to "shoehorn" something in and hope that it will do the job.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens said:
I do appreciate the comments. You know how these projects go, the sound is always left at the bottom of the list of importance. I talked to Pastor again today. My main concern at this time is to make sure we have fly points installed so that we can hang the speakers later if we end up not being able to buy them at this point. I can always ground stack some of my srx rig to get by. We have a 7 piece worship group that plays the contemporary worship heard on K-love such as Lincoln Brewster, David Crowder, Newsboys, etc, so we need a pretty decent sounding rig. We will also be hosting many "semi-pro" Christian artist's as there routing brings them between Denver & Salt Lake City.
As far as this needing to be a line array setup, I am open to suggestion. The sanctuary is going to be 70'x70'. The stage will be 25' of the room (25x70). I'm told the walls are going to be at 18', and then the roof angles into the traditional cathedral shape. We are going to have to do something with acoustic baffling I'm sure. I'd love to bring a professional in to be able to recommend what we will need, but I'm not sure if we can. Any idea what someone qualified would charge? My plans at the moment are a VRX 4 hang with top mounted 18" subs.
Click to expand...

"Why churches buy three sound systems" http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens said:
I do appreciate the comments. You know how these projects go, the sound is always left at the bottom of the list of importance. I talked to Pastor again today. My main concern at this time is to make sure we have fly points installed so that we can hang the speakers later if we end up not being able to buy them at this point. I can always ground stack some of my srx rig to get by. We have a 7 piece worship group that plays the contemporary worship heard on K-love such as Lincoln Brewster, David Crowder, Newsboys, etc, so we need a pretty decent sounding rig. We will also be hosting many "semi-pro" Christian artist's as there routing brings them between Denver & Salt Lake City.
As far as this needing to be a line array setup, I am open to suggestion. The sanctuary is going to be 70'x70'. The stage will be 25' of the room (25x70). I'm told the walls are going to be at 18', and then the roof angles into the traditional cathedral shape. We are going to have to do something with acoustic baffling I'm sure. I'd love to bring a professional in to be able to recommend what we will need, but I'm not sure if we can. Any idea what someone qualified would charge? My plans at the moment are a VRX 4 hang with top mounted 18" subs.
Click to expand...
You have a chance to avoid your signature becoming reality in this case. Strongly agree with the other posters here against a "line array" for 70' of throw.

Our church re-did the system last summer. Room is ~90' deep x 50' wide, A-frame construction. Height at peak is about 40'. We demoed VRX (church already owned these from a portable system), 4886 (I own these and brought them in to see how they did), Danley SH60, SH96HO, and EAW Qx.

Of this batch, the VRX was easily the worst overall, and this was with ITechHD and V5 tunings. We ended up putting in EAW Qx with the UX3600 processor, as it sounded the best of the bunch for our uses. The SH96HO sounds fantastic as well, but it was too large for our application. The cost of the Qx is reasonable relatively speaking, and we love them.

As to bringing in a consultant - you really need to do this. Trying to save $1000 - $2000 worth of design time - particularly at the point where you can have the most positive impact on the final outcome of the room - during planning - isn't a good idea. I doubt the artists you mention would turn down using an EAW Qx system that was competently and correctly installed, as they easily have the ability to deliver concert quality, coverage, and volume if done right. VRX on the other hand would be more of a crap shoot, as the result will be poorer, and VRX has a certain reputation, not all of which is positive.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

TJ Cornish said:
You have a chance to avoid your signature becoming reality in this case. Strongly agree with the other posters here against a "line array" for 70' of throw.

Our church re-did the system last summer. Room is ~90' deep x 50' wide, A-frame construction. Height at peak is about 40'. We demoed VRX (church already owned these from a portable system), 4886 (I own these and brought them in to see how they did), Danley SH60, SH96HO, and EAW Qx.

Of this batch, the VRX was easily the worst overall, and this was with ITechHD and V5 tunings. We ended up putting in EAW Qx with the UX3600 processor, as it sounded the best of the bunch for our uses. The SH96HO sounds fantastic as well, but it was too large for our application. The cost of the Qx is reasonable relatively speaking, and we love them.

As to bringing in a consultant - you really need to do this. Trying to save $1000 - $2000 worth of design time - particularly at the point where you can have the most positive impact on the final outcome of the room - during planning - isn't a good idea. I doubt the artists you mention would turn down using an EAW Qx system that was competently and correctly installed, as they easily have the ability to deliver concert quality, coverage, and volume if done right. VRX on the other hand would be more of a crap shoot, as the result will be poorer, and VRX has a certain reputation, not all of which is positive.
Click to expand...

IMO, any QRx system will sound better than a comparable VRX rig, especially when properly deployed. A properly processed QRx box sounds good and has plenty of output.

The most important thing here is to hire someone who can appropriately consult. I don't know anyone in the Salt Lake area, so I can't recommend anyone, but it's worth investing in them over gear you don't need. Plus, a good one will be able to service your system if need be.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Lance Richens said:
My main concern at this time is to make sure we have fly points installed so that we can hang the speakers later if we end up not being able to buy them at this point.
Click to expand...
I'm assuming this is going to be done by the general contractor? That should be the least of your concerns. When it comes time for an AV contractor to install a speaker system, the last thing they will want to do is hang off of someone else's rigging work unless it was installed by a competent professional and/or approved by a structural engineer. Nobody that is in this business for the long haul will be willing to stick their neck out on the line and take on the liability of relying on someone elses work, lawyers are too hungry these days!! Concentrate your resources on getting your infrastructure right, conduit & electrical is a lot cheaper to install in an unfinished building!!

To echo what everyone else is saying from an AV consultant's perspective, a line array would be my last consideration in this size of room.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Max Warasila said:
IMO, any QRx system will sound better than a comparable VRX rig, especially when properly deployed. A properly processed QRx box sounds good and has plenty of output.

The most important thing here is to hire someone who can appropriately consult. I don't know anyone in the Salt Lake area, so I can't recommend anyone, but it's worth investing in them over gear you don't need. Plus, a good one will be able to service your system if need be.
Click to expand...
FYI, QRX != Qx. Not sure if this is what you meant or not. I'm referring to these: http://eaw.com/products/qx-series/
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

The sanctuary is going to be 70'x70'. The stage will be 25' of the room (25x70).
Click to expand...

The absolute best use of your funds if you are constructing a new space is to make sure that architectural issues are taken care of. This means hiring a qualified acoustical consultant.
Click to expand...

I think that maybe the room dimensions slipped under the radar. A perfectly square room is going to be *nasty* for live sound, regardless of what speakers you use and how they are deployed. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but no amount of money spent after construction on speakers, acoustic treatments, or tuning will be a better return on investment than moving a wall on the blueprints now.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Well, apparently I let my MAPP susbcription expire, so I can't actually model it. Square rooms are a huge no-no in home theaters because the equal distances between surfaces(walls) result in room nodes with a large build up in LFE, and conversely, areas with decreased LFE. There are 'ideal' ratios between ceiling height, width, and depth which minimize these effects.

I had hoped to plug it into MAPP and get a visual of how a room with those dimensions would likely behave.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Aaron Guinn said:
Well, apparently I let my MAPP susbcription expire, so I can't actually model it. Square rooms are a huge no-no in home theaters because the equal distances between surfaces(walls) result in room nodes with a large build up in LFE, and conversely, areas with decreased LFE. There are 'ideal' ratios between ceiling height, width, and depth which minimize these effects.

I had hoped to plug it into MAPP and get a visual of how a room with those dimensions would likely behave.
Click to expand...

Your MAPP authorization will be approved tomorrow if you reapplied tonight via Meyer's website. Authorizations expire 12 months after the last prediction. Use it once every 6 months and you'll always have it.
 
Re: So We Are Finally Underway With Our New Building Project.....

Aaron Guinn said:
I think that maybe the room dimensions slipped under the radar. A perfectly square room is going to be *nasty* for live sound, regardless of what speakers you use and how they are deployed. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but no amount of money spent after construction on speakers, acoustic treatments, or tuning will be a better return on investment than moving a wall on the blueprints now.
Click to expand...

The "basic acoustic design rules"

1: Don't build a round room

2: Don't build a doomed ceiling

3: Don't have parallel walls

4: Don't have dimensions that are multiples of each other.

If you follow those guideline-you are a LONG way towards not having major issues.
 
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