Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Jay Barracato

Jay Barracato

Graduate Student
Jan 11, 2011
1,528
5
38
Solomons MD
Header: This is a project that I was asked to do by a friend but it doesn't fit my schedule; so the information you share with me here will be used to spec a request for another recording engineer in D.C.

A nonprofit is setting up a "shark tank" discussion for entrepreneurs. My friends video company has been asked to film it. The discussion will consist of a panel of three evaluators, an entrepreneur presenting, and a moderator. No audio reproduction is needed in the room. This is solely a recording gig. The room is a medium sized conference room in a lawyers office. The video company has the ability to do their own post processing of the audio; what they lack is the person to run the equipment while they are filming. The final quality should be appropriate for a TV quality documentary.

My instinct would be to multitrack individual mics, and also record a on the fly mix down. I would use the mics built into the cameras as a reference for what was going on in the room. In the easiest scenario, the on the fly mix down will be immediately usable, with a minimum of post processing. In the worst case scenario, a new mix down could be created from the multitrack.

I see two options for micing:
1. Wireless lavs on everyone (possibly wired for the seated panelists, or handheld for the moderator)
2. Wireless for the moderator and presenter, pzm's on the panelists table.

I would have leaned towards option 2 because that matches equipment I have, without having to rent three more channels of wireless.

I also thought, since we have it, a zoom H4 could also provide a tertiary backup for the room. I would also consider the possibility of a shotgun or two covering parts of the room.

While I have done projects like this before, this is definitely not my meat and potatoes in audio, so I would be interested in any input those of you who do this more often have (Hi Dick).

I will probably end up posting a tech wanted ad in the marketplace, but these are going to happen once a month on Tuesdays from 6-8 in Washington DC. If you have the ability and equipment to multitrack like this in DC and would like me to pass on the video companies information, pm me.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

I'd go with number 2. Depending on the conference table I'd might consider hanging one or two omni's from the ceiling.

Some cameras allow multitrack audio so you may not need external recorder unless for backup. If it's only stereo run the omni's into one channel and the wireless into the other for your fly mix. You just want to make sure that you get no phasing issues between the pzm's and/or the omni's.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

It kind of depends on what "presence" is desired for the voices. You can go with a couple of area mics and get a distanced, "YouTube"-ish sound or all the way to the other end of the spectrum and put lavs on everybody. PZM's or PCC's might work OK...IF nobody riffles through papers or props a laptop between themselves and the mics.

Beyerdynamic makes a "line-array" mic (the Revoluto) which would be great for your application, but it's more of an install piece. Think vertical columnar pattern with great rejection to the sides. Three or four of those and some lavs for insurance.

But it all comes down to the tech on site. You have to be there and adjust to the situation, the room, the participants and the video crew. I'd take a s***load of stuff and do a direct feed to the camera with the H4n as a back-up.

Oh....and auto-mix is nice.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Alan Hamilton said:
Earset mics are always nice as well...
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...for audio, maybe. Camera guys generally don't like visual distractions, and since there's no local live audio, lapel mics will do just fine. I also find that folks in "discussion groups" do not like the personal intrusiveness of being fitted for a headset. Performers, yes. Pedants, no. And any of them with eyeglasses are likely going to be less than comfortable with any over the ear mountings.
 
Dick Rees said:
...for audio, maybe. Camera guys generally don't like visual distractions, and since there's no local live audio, lapel mics will do just fine. I also find that folks in "discussion groups" do not like the personal intrusiveness of being fitted for a headset. Performers, yes. Pedants, no. And any of them with eyeglasses are likely going to be less than comfortable with any over the ear mountings.
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Since the panel is not moving, and this is all about supporting the visual, those are the reasons I was considering the pzm's on the table. For the same reasons I don't think computers or papers will be a big problem.

Once again, I am NOT going to be the audio tech, but am trying to outline what we should be prepared to ask whomever takes the job to do.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Jay Barracato said:
Since the panel is not moving, and this is all about supporting the visual, those are the reasons I was considering the pzm's on the table. For the same reasons I don't think computers or papers will be a big problem.

Once again, I am NOT going to be the audio tech, but am trying to outline what we should be prepared to ask whomever takes the job to do.
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PZM quality is all over the map. Some sound good, some not so good. If you can get good ones, go for it.

I do like to listen to them carefully. If the HF is over the top, I use a bit of toweling about a foot square under the mic to tame the top end.
 
Dick Rees said:
PZM quality is all over the map. Some sound good, some not so good. If you can get good ones, go for it.

I do like to listen to them carefully. If the HF is over the top, I use a bit of toweling about a foot square under the mic to tame the top end.
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I have the audio technica. I have never had sound quality concerns.
 
I wonder if it has to do with the barrel power supply and those damn mini plugs.

I have had other pairs of mics wander off on their own in terms of response, just not these, at least yet, knock on wood.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Jay Barracato said:
I wonder if it has to do with the barrel power supply and those damn mini plugs.

I have had other pairs of mics wander off on their own in terms of response, just not these, at least yet, knock on wood.
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That's the same reason I've found Beta 98's unreliable.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Has no one but me been using omnis hanging above the table?

Beats the hell out of pzms when it comes to vibrating phones (and rf from phones!) pen/nail/whatever tapping on the table, bumps, paper wiggeling and other wierd mechanical noises from the particants.

Don't get me wrong. I have two pzms and like them a lot...
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Jay,

I do very similar setups for advisory boards, etc., and usually there is reinforcement involved, so my options are typically more limited than yours.

That being said, I would go with lavs - omni or cardioid (try them out the day of…if people are too close to each other (a la the 3-to-1 Rule) it sounds weird on the recording).

It would be really nice to subrent a Dugan automixer, as I definitely can notice the gating-style automixing of the Shure SCM automixers in recordings, but not in live sound. One of the E-series units would be ideal; the moderator doesn't necessarily need to be automixed with the rest of them, if you're light on channels.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Jordan Wolf said:
Jay,

I do very similar setups for advisory boards, etc., and usually there is reinforcement involved, so my options are typically more limited than yours.

That being said, I would go with lavs - omni or cardioid (try them out the day of…if people are too close to each other (a la the 3-to-1 Rule) it sounds weird on the recording).

It would be really nice to subrent a Dugan automixer, as I definitely can notice the gating-style automixing of the Shure SCM automixers in recordings, but not in live sound. One of the E-series units would be ideal; the moderator doesn't necessarily need to be automixed with the rest of them, if you're light on channels.
Click to expand...

Using a true automatic mixer will give a more natural sound with less noise (always sounds like just one mic open). You don't get the background room noise modulation as more mics open or close like lesser systems, or the noise of 5 mics open all the time, or variation from you riding faders.

Note: The Dugan gain sharing algorithm has been public domain for decades so there are less expensive alternatives that work properly, Shure isn't the only other choice.

JR
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

I use SCM-410's and am quite happy with them. I know our local wireless rental facility has the 810 racked up for hire. They work well and are affordable...and they make a huge difference in the quality of the audio.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

The trick with the Shure automixers is to make sure you have the “last mic lock on” switch on. And have the off attenuation set to 15dB.
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Kevin Maxwell said:
The trick with the Shure automixers is to make sure you have the “last mic lock on” switch on. And have the off attenuation set to 15dB.
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I have used them with those settings, but still found the auto mixing to be noticeable in a recording - live sound, it's perfectly unnoticeable (and I do use it that way all the time).

As to JR's comment about the algorithm being available in other gear implementations, there are certainly other pieces of gear to look into (Lectrosonics uses it, I believe, and Shure's new SCM mixers might have a similar algorithm).
 
Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Jordan Wolf said:
I have used them with those settings, but still found the auto mixing to be noticeable in a recording - live sound, it's perfectly unnoticeable (and I do use it that way all the time).

As to JR's comment about the algorithm being available in other gear implementations, there are certainly other pieces of gear to look into (Lectrosonics uses it, I believe, and Shure's new SCM mixers might have a similar algorithm).
Click to expand...

I don’t think the New Shure SCM820 uses the Dugan algorithm as most people call it.

I always use the SCM810s with the direct outs of a standard mixer and have never noticed a choppiness that way. I have noticed it with some other units but they were much earlier versions that I never got a chance to try new versions of. The Dugan is definitely the premium unit. There is one test I want to do some day comparing the Shure and the Dugan but we will save that for another discussion.

There is now a Dugan card for the Yamaha digital mixers and maybe you can look into getting that combination for these events. Also Dugan units aren’t as pricey as they used to be.

Be very careful of taking camera mic sound and mixer feed sound. Some editors have a tendency to just mix the 2 together and leave them both up the whole time and then wonder why it sounds so bad. I know sound guys that won’t give the editor too many choices because they will make the wrong ones.
 
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Re: Thought Problem: micing and mixing a panel discussion for recording

Jordan Wolf said:
I have used them with those settings, but still found the auto mixing to be noticeable in a recording - live sound, it's perfectly unnoticeable (and I do use it that way all the time).

As to JR's comment about the algorithm being available in other gear implementations, there are certainly other pieces of gear to look into (Lectrosonics uses it, I believe, and Shure's new SCM mixers might have a similar algorithm).
Click to expand...

And perhaps the Peavey automatic mixer I designed 15+ years ago.... or the several variants after I left.

JR
 
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