Too Much Subs

J

Jack Arnott

Senior
Jan 29, 2011
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In reply to a comment about a double 18"not keeping up with a full range box (from another thread, to me this is it's own monster):

Ivan Beaver said:
It all depends on what the ratio of mid/hi to sub energy is. Different people like different amounts.

My experience is that after "adjusting by ear" a system (basically turning up the subs until it sounds "right"), and then measuring the system, the subs are in the range of 25-30dB louder than the full range cabinets for EDM style music.

So basically below 100Hzish it is 25-30 dB louder than above. Of course there is a big slope around 100Hz ish, so lets say above 300hz vs below 90Hz.

I know this sounds extreme-but I have done it a number of different times-with different people-on different systems in different places.

So as you can see-you need A WHOLE LOT more sub output than full range output-for that type of music-to be represented in the way the artists want it.Of course many times people simply don't have enough sub to "outrun" the tops, so the ratio is lower and they just live with it.
But when "given the choice" a wide variety of people in the US like that.I use that as a "starting point" for suggesting sub to top output range.
So for a top that is 130dB, you should be looking at sub outputs in the 155-160dB range-IF you are going to run the tops at full level.
And remember that the average level as read on a meter is going to be 10-15dB lower than the peak calculations.
Click to expand...

And an article that was linked for my viewing on facebook yesterday.

http://www.audiotechnology.com.au/wp/index.php/time-to-shelve-the-low-end/

I am definitely in agreement with this article. It is also how I implement. In fact I go further (less further?) than this.
I have written on forums before about some of my business practices, and how I will charge more for including subs. (I consider lows and subs to be two different entities.) My logic being that the subs are what takes up all the truck pack, the labor, and the electricity. Lots of times providing subs pushes me from using wall power to power distro.

Please realize that i am doing community events, not providing for nationals in arena's, or doing EDM.
But my experience is that no one misses the subs. No one clamors for the "punch" or "the excitement".
I get plenty of suggestions, comments, and compliments, and there just is no suggestions for more kick drum.

Last fall my wife and I went to see Imagine Dragons in the local arena. It was a hot subby mess.
Lots of sub excitement!!! But just could not hear the vocals. At all. I tried to not show my disappointment, as she is such a big fan, and was having a great time. But I just think that things could be so much better.

(edit) Upon re-reading, it seems that Ivan might be a proponent of this behavior. It is taken out of context, as it seems that this needs its own thread. Ivan is describing, not prescribing. He can weigh in with his own thoughts here.
 
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Re: Too Much Subs

To me, getting a snare drum to sit just perfectly in a mix is an orgasmic experience.
It is a very delicate beast to get just right.

I think that the guy who mixes for the Letterman Show is incredible. To me, his snare drums are always just "this much" too loud.
But I am in awe of how precisely "this much" he always is. Incredibly consistent.

At Imagine Dragons, at times I couldn't even hear the snare drum. Just not there at all.
 
Re: Too Much Subs

I think that the venues are part of the problem, too. I was planning on posting this link in the acoustics thread going on in the Varsity forum, but it would fit well here too:

http://flexac.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Importance-of-bass-clarity.pdf

http://flexac.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/JASA.pdf

Reverberation time is typically measured at mid frequencies - an average of 500 Hz and 1000 Hz. This is the frequency range where reverberation effects speech clarity, but modern music has a ton of content in the low frequencies that doesn't exist in traditional music or speech. The reverberation at these frequencies isn't usually accounted for in the design of rooms. There is fairly compelling evidence that the low frequency reverberation has a large effect on how people perceive the quality of rock and pop music. The problem is that low frequency reverberation is much more difficult to control in large rooms and requires innovative (and expensive) solutions. You can't slap up fiberglass panels or spray the walls with K-13.

Turning the bass down at the sound board is important, but making sure the room sounds good down low is also important for venues where rock and pop are a large portion of the shows. This is especially true in arenas where even the mid frequency reverberation isn't typically well controlled.
 
Re: Too Much Subs

Robert nailed it, RT-60 times below 100Hz that are long can take any level of sub bass and make a woofy mess. For example, we're putting four bass traps, 4' cube each, in a gym used for modern style church services.

I like a lot of bass, as long as it's deep and doesn't 'linger' in time too long.
 
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