Training young engineers

Justice C. Bigler

Justice C. Bigler

Senior
Jan 11, 2011
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Tulsa, OK
www.justicebigler.com
now that I have my computer problems for the day dealt with...

How do you guys go about training young engineers? And especially how do you go about getting them from a basic bar band PA or DJ set up level of knowledge and skill to something approximating a professional sound engineer?

I have several younger, less experienced stage hands (who want to be sound engineers) who have been working in our building for two or three years now, and it seems like no matter what I do, I can't get them to understand even basics like signal flow, patching a stage properly, how to hook up power amps and speakers/powered speakers, let alone anything like RF mics, and programming a PM5D. I've tried to explain all of these things over the last few years, but it never seems to sink in.

Any ideas?
 
Re: Training young engineers

Some people just get it, others never do. One of the best experiences I've had was while at college was when we mixed pre-recorded tracks from another gig in small groups of 2 or 4 coming through an X-Array or Vertec 4888 rig. There was no pressure to get the show up and running quick or dealing with an artist, it let me really dig into an H3K and learn the console and it's signal flow. This was a course that only focused on mixing, while basic show skills and knowledge where the focus of other courses.
 
Re: Training young engineers

The world needs cable wrappers, too.

Seriously, in any profession there's a difference between working with a diamond in the rough and starting out with a piece of coal. The result may be the same, but one road is a whole lot longer. While you may not need to cut anybody loose (the light could still go on), you may need to find someone with an aptitude for the task at hand.
 
Re: Training young engineers

Justice C. Bigler said:
I have several younger, less experienced stage hands (who want to be sound engineers) who have been working in our building for two or three years now, and it seems like no matter what I do, I can't get them to understand even basics like signal flow, patching a stage properly, how to hook up power amps and speakers/powered speakers, let alone anything like RF mics, and programming a PM5D. I've tried to explain all of these things over the last few years, but it never seems to sink in.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

"I don't want to know all that technical stuff, I just want to twist some knobs." I actually had a guy say this to me after talking me into conducting a workshop on elementary sound mixing. Until they show some initiative and desire just give them a pass.
 
Re: Training young engineers

Tim Kartes said:
http://www.amazon.com/Live-Sound-Reinforcement-Mix-Audio/dp/0918371074
Click to expand...

That is actually the text book for the sound portion of our apprentice program here in the IA local (for which I serve as a committee member), which they get for free as part of being in the apprentice program. I have also thrown the Yamaha book at several of them. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have the reading comprehension skills to understand what it is that they are reading.

I don't know how to say what I'm thinking without coming off as elitist, but I think that their overall educational background, or lack there of is holding them back. Even some of the guys who have been working as stage hands for 20 or 30 years still seem to lack a real competence in something as simple as patching inputs on a stage, through dry lines, into a patch panel in the booth that patches to the console snake. I have one guy who routinely tells people he was been working in the industry since 1985 (and isn't more than maybe 5 or 6 years older than me), but still is unable to get a small set up of 10 or 12 mics plugged in in proper order.

And yeah, some of them have problems wrapping cables also.

It's frustrating because people are looking to me when something goes wrong or doesn't work and want to know why I didn't teach them how to do this stuff. And the young sound guys look at me and want to know when I'm going to teach them everything I know--as if one person sat me down and taught me everything.
 
Re: Training young engineers

If they aren't fulfilling their jobs skill requirements/duties why are they still working there? Pretty sure if they've been there for 2 years and they don't get it they should go be successful elsewhere....
 
Re: Training young engineers

Hello,

An old Chinese Proverb goes something like: There's a difference between wants and needs.

In this case, they may want to be a Sound Tech...but, their lack of dilligence shows that they don't consider it a need. If they "need" to be a Sound Tech, they'll learn by asking questions, paying attention to their assigned tasks, volunteer for new or undesirable tasks and read, read and reread anything and everything Audio.

They have to have a "need" to learn. You can't do it for them. The truth...they consider it a job and not a profession, they're just looking for a paycheck.

Send them to the lighting Department!

Cheers,
Hammer
 
Re: Training young engineers

I've met several people like this I call brute force mixers, they are pretty decent at making the band sound good- but don't always know the science of how they get there. Ideally you want to be able to send someone on a show and they can handle it all. When I worked at the Fox in Atlanta I was surrounded by 50 year old sound guys who knew nothing about the rigs that came in except we push sound cases to this corner. That's what they do and there's a market for that kind of manual labor. You can't really keep them employed if they aren't going to be moving forward with with their own education. It's a tough call unless you have a need for box pushers. Most of us who are in this forum are dedicated to improving and learning on our own accord.

While I consider the Yamaha book somewhat the bible for our field, it can be a little hard to read and comprehend. It was the only good periodical out there at the time I was coming up. Now there are several books that aren't as entailed, but better basic books. The bottom line is that if they haven't picked up anything in 2-3 years, they probably don't have any interest in continuing education.
 
Re: Training young engineers

Kip Conner said:
When I worked at the Fox in Atlanta I was surrounded by 50 year old sound guys who knew nothing about the rigs that came in except we push sound cases to this corner. That's what they do and there's a market for that kind of manual labor.
Click to expand...

'Neck-down' workers. I agree - the world needs a certain number of them, though in smaller productions too many of them can be a PITA.

While I consider the Yamaha book somewhat the bible for our field, it can be a little hard to read and comprehend. It was the only good periodical out there at the time I was coming up. Now there are several books that aren't as entailed, but better basic books. The bottom line is that if they haven't picked up anything in 2-3 years, they probably don't have any interest in continuing education.
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more. Consider the preface to Electricity for the Entertainment Electrician & Technician:

There’s an ancient story of a martial arts master who attempts to give
one of his students, the “chosen one,” the secret to harnessing the power
of the universe. But the two of them discover that the sacred scroll con-
taining the secret is nothing but a blank reflective surface. Eventually,
the student realizes the true meaning of the scroll, that the power of the
universe is already inside of him. Armed with this newfound knowledge,
the student becomes the master and defeats the evil warrior.

You may recognize this ancient story as the plot of the movie Kung Fu
Panda. Yes, I realize that it’s a children’s animated movie about a noodle-
making panda bear with no formal martial arts training who is chosen
over five highly skilled experts to fulfill a prophecy by defeating the
villain. And I do realize that the movie is designed to appeal more to
the funny bone than to the think muscle. But as I was in the process of
writing the final chapter of this book, I took my 11-year-old daughter to
see this movie. I couldn’t help thinking that its message, that the greatest
power is inside of us all, is exactly the message that I want to convey to
you, the reader, about this book. The “sacred scroll” that you now hold
in your hands is nothing more than a highly reflective surface. It merely
reflects the incredible power of your mind to visualize, analyze, and
comprehend. That power is inside of you, and my hope is that this book
will help you bring it out.

But before you undertake the journey through these pages, take some
time to reflect on what it might take to reach your goals. How much
effort are you willing to put forth? How much time can you spend each
day working to achieve your desires? Someone once said that if you’re
interested in something you’ll do what’s convenient, but if you’re
passionate about something you’ll do whatever it takes. No student has
ever mastered a subject without making great sacrifices. It takes time,
dedication, hard work, contemplation, and concerted effort. It’s no
different whether we’re talking about the martial arts, theatre arts, per-
forming arts, or the art of mastering electricity.

The information contained in this book is not difficult, but it can be
challenging. Some of the concepts can challenge your ability to straddle
the line between abstract thought and real-world application. But if you
love the production arts as much as Po, the kung fu panda, loves food
and the martial arts, then you too are capable of impressive feats of art-
istry. All it takes now is for you to see your reflection in these pages. So
I challenge you to dive into this book with the same enthusiasm as a
panda bear fighting for a dumpling.

Namaste.
 
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Re: Training young engineers

A lot of good stuff has been said. I believe that the cream rises to the top. Those who are capable of doing this kind of work and the thinking required will find themselves almost without conscious decision eventually becoming "the master". They may not have all of the answers or background at first, but this kind of people understand the bigger picture, and will automatically work to fill the holes in their swiss cheese knowledge so they can get the job done.

I'm sorry you have too many of the other kind around.
 
Re: Training young engineers

These guys may not be the quickest learners or brightest minds on the planet, but I don't think that is necessarily the largest part of the problem.

I do not believe that talent exists. Folks that are good at what they do typically have one thing in common. The "right" kind of practice/learning and a LOT of time spent at it. There is a great book called "Talent Is Overrated" which examines this issue and points to countless examples of folks who excel being people who invested time and effort and took a vested interest in their discipline, sometimes to extremes. A casual approach does not usually lead to greatness. Some people have a passion for what they do, others do not. Guess which group is more likely to succeed?....

I think that's the largest problem here - lack of motivation and initiative or lack of the fundamental disciplines necessary to allow one to study effectively.
 
Re: Training young engineers

Jeff Babcock said:
A casual approach does not usually lead to greatness. Some people have a passion for what they do, others do not. Guess which group is more likely to succeed?....

I think that's the largest problem here - lack of motivation and initiative or lack of the fundamental disciplines necessary to allow one to study effectively.
Click to expand...

I think this is the core of the issue. Your stagehands don't really want to be soundmen, they want to sit behind a console. When people are interested in a job they learn how to do it easily. When people are not really interested they cannot learn anything.

Mac
 
Re: Training young engineers

Justice C. Bigler said:
That is actually the text book for the sound portion of our apprentice program here in the IA local (for which I serve as a committee member), which they get for free as part of being in the apprentice program. I have also thrown the Yamaha book at several of them. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have the reading comprehension skills to understand what it is that they are reading.

I don't know how to say what I'm thinking without coming off as elitist, but I think that their overall educational background, or lack there of is holding them back. Even some of the guys who have been working as stage hands for 20 or 30 years still seem to lack a real competence in something as simple as patching inputs on a stage, through dry lines, into a patch panel in the booth that patches to the console snake. I have one guy who routinely tells people he was been working in the industry since 1985 (and isn't more than maybe 5 or 6 years older than me), but still is unable to get a small set up of 10 or 12 mics plugged in in proper order.

And yeah, some of them have problems wrapping cables also.

It's frustrating because people are looking to me when something goes wrong or doesn't work and want to know why I didn't teach them how to do this stuff. And the young sound guys look at me and want to know when I'm going to teach them everything I know--as if one person sat me down and taught me everything.
Click to expand...

When the local band I'm working for now first asked me to run sound for them... I picked that book up immediately. Actually, before I started doing every gig with them, I worked swing-shift, and when i could make a performance of theirs they always wanted me to twist some knobs, guess I have a decent ear. Well, when i got a full-time day shift job, they wanted me to start working with them on every gig for an even cut, and i had read the book by the first "full gig" with them. It surprised me at how amazed they were at how fast I got their rig up and running and sounding better than they guy that was doing it "full-time" last for them. I guess he was one of the "i just wanna be part of the band" engineers.
 
Re: Training young engineers

mackerr said:
I think this is the core of the issue. Your stagehands don't really want to be soundmen, they want to sit behind a console. When people are interested in a job they learn how to do it easily. When people are not really interested they cannot learn anything.

Mac
Click to expand...

Hello,

These Stage Hands excell in Mediocrity!

Hammer
 
Re: Training young engineers

IMO, I shouldn't have to train anyone, except for a couple directions the first day. All I should have to do is answer questions, and possibly give a longer explanation or lesson for why something is the way it is. The people that I want working for me are the ones that are driven to learn on their own and at shows, without any direct instruction from me. They learn by watching, reading, listening, and doing more than by being told what to do. Of course, I give a general idea of their responsibilities at a given show, and they can usually figure out how to get it done.

I've worked with people before that want to do gigs, but I have to babysit them through every single task. I would have to tell them 5 times that "those trunks need to be brought out to the truck" but they still just stand there. Obviously, I don't call those people anymore.

People like Adrian, on the other hand, love sound and technical stuff so much that they learn on their own. He constantly tells me how he found something new and fancy that he could do, or a better way for an existing task, or whatever. I do remember that at first, Adrian had to be babysat through a couple things, but he was like 12 at the time, and now he's capable of doing whatever I assign him with barely a question.

It is extremely hard to find good people these days. I have 100 people I could call to work a show, of which only a couple of them would be people I'd want to work with, and those people are usually busy, since they are working for other people that also appreciate their great work.

Finally, what I know now I learned from only a few sources: a friend of mine that had a system back when I was like 10 and showed me how it all worked, after which I began to read things like the Yamaha book and experiment with my own gear. The final and greatest contribution to my knowledge and wisdom today has been the people on this forum and the former PSW, for which I'd like to say thanks again everyone!

Here's a tip: tell a potential employee to read and post on this forum for 5 years. If after that time they aren't an amazing soundguy, then they probably aren't cut out for it.:lol:
 
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Re: Training young engineers

When I was starting out the guy teaching me set out levels...... he actually went through the structure of the sound team and gave me the aims to hit and the responsibilities for each of the levels....

I was shown how to do it, I then did it under direction, I did it under supervision (not told how to do it), then I was given the responsibility.

loader
Stage tech (fault finding, Mic basics, positioning etc, stage wireing)
System Tech (wireing up monitors and FOH basic systems 2 way 3 way etc)
Stage patch (thinking about both boards, Stage patch with stage snakes v direct run cables etc)
Monitor engineer - house and whys about monitors and hook ups.
FOH engineer - learning FOH patch of inserts etc.... mixing

As far as getting me mixing I was Aloud to mix the first band on..... under supervision. usually the drum channels were the same as his but I had to bring up guitars and vocals...... and mix the band. Next given the 2 supports and had to learn to bring up drum channels..... I got my hands on the monitor board first and had 2 really good monitor guys teach me the phycology of monitor mixing. I found an engineer online to ask questions and give me advice almost a mentor. I had to achieve certain levels before I could move up.

It was given to me structured from the beginning. I always knew what was next to learn.

I knew I would be making tea and pushing boxes from the very beginning. and allot of the young kids coming through form Degree courses expect to be "engineers" as soon as they come out of uni. They think because they have a college degree they can walk in to the higher levels of employment like they do with other careers. They are however lacking in most of the major life lessons learned through working from the bottom. Even lacking in common sense.

Coming into the job and being given the Pathway to getting my hands on a board was enough to make me hungry to learn. Instead of walking into the job and being slapped down and told I was not an engineer and had allot to learn, I was given the ladder to climb and told "you want to do this? This is how to be the best at what you do"

The guys I was learning from had passion and even when we weren't working on the show would be talking shop. At first I didn't understand allot of it. but gradually understood more or would go home and look it up. I was given a link to PSW and told to search for things I didn't understand. Instead of handing it to me on a plate they gave me the tools to go look it all up.

I kinda fall into the percentage where this was never just another job. I had been in work from 14 and knew I had to do something I loved. When I found It I had to go after it with total determination. and MAKE my job. I realised early on if you don't keep up you dont get the call back. Half measure don't cut it.

Ok Ive rambled alot! hahah

Kim x
 
Re: Training young engineers

Justice C. Bigler said:
now that I have my computer problems for the day dealt with...

How do you guys go about training young engineers? And especially how do you go about getting them from a basic bar band PA or DJ set up level of knowledge and skill to something approximating a professional sound engineer?

I have several younger, less experienced stage hands (who want to be sound engineers) who have been working in our building for two or three years now, and it seems like no matter what I do, I can't get them to understand even basics like signal flow, patching a stage properly, how to hook up power amps and speakers/powered speakers, let alone anything like RF mics, and programming a PM5D. I've tried to explain all of these things over the last few years, but it never seems to sink in.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

I have trained more volunteers and newbies than my age would indicate. Some will never get past a certain point, and some will. With me being a fairly constant factor this leads me to believe that the biggest varying factor is the people being trained.

Not every job is for everyone, I guess.

I think that learning in increments and though repetition at the same time is the key to all of this:
1).Show them once at a glance,
2).explain it thoroughly the next time,
3).supervise them the next time and if they seem fine at this point,
4).allow them to proceed to doing it on their own with you checking the work. If your "after task checks" repeatedly raise a green flag, then they are proficient at this task and can be trusted to perform this task on their own -
5).and move on to the next.


Repeat for every task related to our work. It's a slow process, but sadly is what it takes. If someone has real initiative and interest, they'll skip right on to step number 4 and you'll know it immidiately.

If someone can't get from one step to the next, at say, patching subsnakes and converting the subsnake input numbers to stage box numbers, and further on to mixer input numbers, you need to arrange for a time for whoever it is to join you in laying the gear out on stage with no pressure of a oncoming soundcheck or other gear in the way to cause confusion, and starting with just a single mic, learning to follow the signal from XLR cable to preamp.
This, again, takes time and is a PIA, but it's what it takes if you are absolutely set on making "this category" of people learn this stuff. The "other category" will just skip to step # 4 and save you all the PIA.

I suppose the really important question is: "How does it benefit me that these people have these skills". The answer should reveal whether the process is worth all the PIA - because there will be.

Lastly, never underappreciate how difficult these things were to yourself at one time!
 
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