Two pianos, one microphone

[Lee Brenkman]

I'm now 29 shows down and 7 to go in my annual marathon Summer run at the Stanford Jazz Workshop and Festival.

It's a jazz camp and the concerts are done by the faculty who are mostly well know jazz musicians.

I mix all of the concerts and simultaneously make archival recordings

2012 Stanford Jazz Festival lineup announced - News - Stanford Jazz Workshop

Most of the concerts are piano, bass and drums trios with one to four horn soloists down front with the occasional guitar or vibes player. But with the pool of available talent, last minute additions and surprises are not uncommon.

But last Thursday in the venue that has a limited number of inputs , the show expanded to include a total of 16 musicians including a percussionist who's required multiple microphones And TWO 9 foot grand pianos.

This made my usual two or three mic setup on one piano not an option.

SO, after seeing the way they wanted to set up on stage, finding out who the drummers were and weighing my options I did THIS.

One, figure 8 pattern Cascade Fathead ribbon between the two pianos; Hamburg Steinway with the lid off in front and New York Steinway in back with the lid on full stick. A little tweaking of the angle of the back pickup side of the mic towards the lid of the back piano and the balance was good when both pianos were played.

And the rejection of sounds coming from the rest of the stage, including the drums, was remarkable.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

Fine Brenkmanship.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

I'm now 29 shows down and 7 to go in my annual marathon Summer run at the Stanford Jazz Workshop and Festival.

It's a jazz camp and the concerts are done by the faculty who are mostly well know jazz musicians.

I mix all of the concerts and simultaneously make archival recordings

2012 Stanford Jazz Festival lineup announced - News - Stanford Jazz Workshop

Most of the concerts are piano, bass and drums trios with one to four horn soloists down front with the occasional guitar or vibes player. But with the pool of available talent, last minute additions and surprises are not uncommon.

But last Thursday in the venue that has a limited number of inputs , the show expanded to include a total of 16 musicians including a percussionist who's required multiple microphones And TWO 9 foot grand pianos.

This made my usual two or three mic setup on one piano not an option.

SO, after seeing the way they wanted to set up on stage, finding out who the drummers were and weighing my options I did THIS.

One, figure 8 pattern Cascade Fathead ribbon between the two pianos; Hamburg Steinway with the lid off in front and New York Steinway in back with the lid on full stick. A little tweaking of the angle of the back pickup side of the mic towards the lid of the back piano and the balance was good when both pianos were played.

And the rejection of sounds coming from the rest of the stage, including the drums, was remarkable.

Nice! I have always dreamt of using a figure-8 for something like that

One question for you or anyone: Is it true that the two opposing lobes of the figure-8 pattern are in opposite "acoustic polarity"? Does this influence the sound in your or in similar cases?

 

[Tim Padrick]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

Good thinking under fire.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

One question for you or anyone: Is it true that the two opposing lobes of the figure-8 pattern are in opposite "acoustic polarity"? Does this influence the sound in your or in similar cases?

It is true, but it would only have an effect if both sources were identical! This is how MS stereo imaging works. Microphone practice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

Lee, what is the little lav-like (IsoMax? Shure?) in the upstage piano used for?

 

[Geoff Doane]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

Nice! I have always dreamt of using a figure-8 for something like that

One question for you or anyone: Is it true that the two opposing lobes of the figure-8 pattern are in opposite "acoustic polarity"? Does this influence the sound in your or in similar cases?

OK, maybe I'll be third time lucky trying to reply to this thread. ~~:smile:

The two sides of a figure-8 mic are indeed out of polarity with each other. A sound arriving at 90° off axis enters both sides equally, and is cancelled out. A ribbon mic does this mechanically. A condenser like a C-414, has two diaphragms back to back. In Figure-8 mode, the front diaphragm is polarized with +60V, the back is at -60V. A sound at 90° is cancelled electrically. For an omni pattern both sides are polarized at +60V. You can get any intermediate pattern by polarizing the back diaphragm at a voltage between -60 and +60V. Grounding the back gives you a cardioid pattern.


I've used a single C-414 in figure-8 before to mic a grand piano with decent results. It was set up above the hammers, one side facing left, and the other right. It was just a matter of finding the spot that gave the desired balance between high and low notes.

GTD

 

[Lee Brenkman]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

Lee, what is the little lav-like (IsoMax? Shure?) in the upstage piano used for?

NORMALLY in this venue, a single Steinway gets three microphones. Two Audix SCX-25s on clamps near the hammers and a Countryman IsoMax 101 omni taped over the second or third hole from the treble end, mostly for monitor use only.

I had already taped the Countryman in the "primary" piano when the bandleader came in and told me about the "extras" on that evening's show, including the second piano.

I didn't have time to remove the little mic because of the short amount of time alloted to set up and sound check.

 

[Jordan Lahr]

Wow I'm happy about our accoustics in our space. No mics needed for our halls. I'll snag a pic when I get the chance.

Here's our steinways at work

 

[Lee Brenkman]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

Wow I'm happy about our accoustics in our space. No mics needed for our halls. I'll snag a pic when I get the chance.

Here's our steinways at work

Jordan, that's the way the pianos were set at my show. This venue regularly does classical concerts without amplification and none would have been needed, except...

instead of the two pianos being center stage the keyboard of the down stage instrument was dead center and to the right (from the audience perspective) of that was a double bassist with an amplifier, a set of trap drums and a percussionist sitting on a cajon, with two conga drums, a frame drum on a stand and assorted other small hand held instruments. In front down center, were, from time to time anywhere from 1 to 5 saxophonists and/or brass players.

The dynamic level was set by the trap sets. Everything else had to be brought up, or occasionally, down to balance with them.

By rock standards it wasn't even moderately loud. Compared to a string quartet, piano trio or even two Steinways (complete with page turners) it was a bit more "in your face" dynamically.

 

[Jordan Lahr]

Ah explains a bit more.

 

[Rob Ottaviano]

Re: Two pianos, one microphone

Lee I used the same technique with a Royer 121. Don't know about Fathead but the Royer is a tad brighter on the rear side. It's all about the placement especially in a good sounding hall. I love ribbons for that application.
Peace

 

[Mike Sokol]

More figure-8 tricks

Here's another cool trick you can do with a figure-8 mic. Put it in front of a Leslie with the pattern facing up and down, and it will reject the roar of the band while picking up the horn above and the rotor below. I myself am a Hammond player and started using this trick nearly 40 years ago on my Leslie on stage.