Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

[Simon Coffin]

Gents,

I've been doing a fair amount of work lately mixing for a local provider, usually Corporate talking heads stuff, a couple of headset mics, a handheld or two, a podium and a bit of playback for the breaks. Most of this has been on an LS9, which hardly taxes it's capabilities, so I haven't really had to do much digging around on the mixer to get the job done. This past Saturday however was a different situation, a Corporate Christmas Party with full band, DJ, a couple of MCs, main PA setup and L/R delays to cover the width of the room.

Since I hadn't used the LS9 in a full setup like this, I decided to pickup the mixer a day earlier and spend some time with it in my garage. Following my usual habits on my 01v96 I returned the mixer to factory settings by recalling scene 01 "Initial data" and checked all the patching. Everything seemed ok, all the inputs worked, Mix1 through 5 were configured for the stage monitors and I could see output levels on the Meters screen. Following the default settings Mix 13 was routed to Effect Rack 5 and Mix 14 to Effect Rack 6 and I could see levels going into the Racks and the outputs returning to Channels 29,30,31 & 32 as I wanted. The Main L/R outputs were also showing level, so I thought I was in good shape.

At the show, with everything built and powered up I grabbed my Talkback mic and started going through the wedges and mains. Everything worked but I had a very noticeable delay on the Right main output. Very distinct, very annoying and utterly unusable. I checked through my patching and traced the signal flow as best as my limited experience with this board would allow, but still couldn't find anything. Eventually I repatched the rig to mono and ran the show on the Left output.

Once the band was playing and I had their mix settled I started going through the signal flow some more and realized that the default setup has Mix13, 14, 15 and 16 going to Effect racks 5,6,7 & 8 respectively. And what was setup in Effect Rack 8, being fed by Mix 16, aka the Right main output? A 250ms delay.

Beyond the fact that Yamaha's terminology, everything is a Mix, rather than the traditional Aux's and L/R busses, is confusing - why in the hell would the default factory setting send the Right Main output through a 250ms delay?

Something tells me I can't be the first to stumble across this gem, but a search doesn't reveal any other posts on a similar subject.

Along these same lines, can someone enlighten me on the relationship of Mix15 and Mix16 and the L/R Mains. They appear to be mostly one and the same, but there are a few places where they are not quite the same.

Ciao
Simon

 

[mackerr]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

Since I hadn't used the LS9 in a full setup like this, I decided to pickup the mixer a day earlier and spend some time with it in my garage. Following my usual habits on my 01v96 I returned the mixer to factory settings by recalling scene 01 "Initial data" and checked all the patching. Everything seemed ok, all the inputs worked, Mix1 through 5 were configured for the stage monitors and I could see output levels on the Meters screen. Following the default settings Mix 13 was routed to Effect Rack 5 and Mix 14 to Effect Rack 6 and I could see levels going into the Racks and the outputs returning to Channels 29,30,31 & 32 as I wanted. The Main L/R outputs were also showing level, so I thought I was in good shape.

Going to scene 000 does not reset the console, it is only a scene that has the factory default settings. As soon as you go to another scene the old settings return. To reset the console, (which you should do before every set up) hold down the STORE button while powering up. (this might be different on an LS9, it is STORE on all the other consoles) When the dialog comes up sellect INITIALIZE.

At the show, with everything built and powered up I grabbed my Talkback mic and started going through the wedges and mains. Everything worked but I had a very noticeable delay on the Right main output. Very distinct, very annoying and utterly unusable. I checked through my patching and traced the signal flow as best as my limited experience with this board would allow, but still couldn't find anything. Eventually I repatched the rig to mono and ran the show on the Left output.

Once the band was playing and I had their mix settled I started going through the signal flow some more and realized that the default setup has Mix13, 14, 15 and 16 going to Effect racks 5,6,7 & 8 respectively. And what was setup in Effect Rack 8, being fed by Mix 16, aka the Right main output? A 250ms delay.

Beyond the fact that Yamaha's terminology, everything is a Mix, rather than the traditional Aux's and L/R busses, is confusing - why in the hell would the default factory setting send the Right Main output through a 250ms delay?

Something tells me I can't be the first to stumble across this gem, but a search doesn't reveal any other posts on a similar subject.

Along these same lines, can someone enlighten me on the relationship of Mix15 and Mix16 and the L/R Mains. They appear to be mostly one and the same, but there are a few places where they are not quite the same.

There is no relationship whatsoever between mix 15,16 and the main outs. There are 16 mixes plus a stereo bus. The mixes can be routed to the stereo bus, or one of the matrix buses. The mixes can be set to be either FIXED, in which case they behave like a group, or VARIABLE, in which case they behave like an aux.

If you use an LS9 often, I suggest you create a showfile that is set up the way you like the console and carry it with you on a USB stick. You can then load your showfile into whatever LS9 you are using and have the set up the way you want it.

Mac

 

[Kevin Maxwell]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

Gents,

I've been doing a fair amount of work lately mixing for a local provider, usually Corporate talking heads stuff, a couple of headset mics, a handheld or two, a podium and a bit of playback for the breaks. Most of this has been on an LS9, which hardly taxes it's capabilities, so I haven't really had to do much digging around on the mixer to get the job done. This past Saturday however was a different situation, a Corporate Christmas Party with full band, DJ, a couple of MCs, main PA setup and L/R delays to cover the width of the room.

Since I hadn't used the LS9 in a full setup like this, I decided to pickup the mixer a day earlier and spend some time with it in my garage. Following my usual habits on my 01v96 I returned the mixer to factory settings by recalling scene 01 "Initial data" and checked all the patching. Everything seemed ok, all the inputs worked, Mix1 through 5 were configured for the stage monitors and I could see output levels on the Meters screen. Following the default settings Mix 13 was routed to Effect Rack 5 and Mix 14 to Effect Rack 6 and I could see levels going into the Racks and the outputs returning to Channels 29,30,31 & 32 as I wanted. The Main L/R outputs were also showing level, so I thought I was in good shape.

At the show, with everything built and powered up I grabbed my Talkback mic and started going through the wedges and mains. Everything worked but I had a very noticeable delay on the Right main output. Very distinct, very annoying and utterly unusable. I checked through my patching and traced the signal flow as best as my limited experience with this board would allow, but still couldn't find anything. Eventually I repatched the rig to mono and ran the show on the Left output.

Once the band was playing and I had their mix settled I started going through the signal flow some more and realized that the default setup has Mix13, 14, 15 and 16 going to Effect racks 5,6,7 & 8 respectively. And what was setup in Effect Rack 8, being fed by Mix 16, aka the Right main output? A 250ms delay.

Beyond the fact that Yamaha's terminology, everything is a Mix, rather than the traditional Aux's and L/R busses, is confusing - why in the hell would the default factory setting send the Right Main output through a 250ms delay?

Something tells me I can't be the first to stumble across this gem, but a search doesn't reveal any other posts on a similar subject.

Along these same lines, can someone enlighten me on the relationship of Mix15 and Mix16 and the L/R Mains. They appear to be mostly one and the same, but there are a few places where they are not quite the same.

Ciao
Simon

By default the omni outs are 13-matrix1, 14-matrix2, 15-Stereo-L, 16-Stereo-R.

I don’t know if the LS9 does the same thing as an M7 but the following is a cut and past of something I posted in another thread. If you didn’t recall scene 000 after resetting the LS9 it may have done the same thing as below.

When taking the advanced M7 class I found a bug and pointed it out to the trainers and they said yeah it shouldn’t do that. Want to try it yourself - Recall a scene; make it something that is very obvious. Now reset (initialize) the console clearing everything out. Look at your settings, the console still has the last scene and all of its setting, it didn’t reset the console. Not until you select scene 000 will it reset everything. I did this and almost had disastrous results because the scene I had recalled had all of the trims set for microphone level inputs and the setup they had had a multi-track player into those inputs at line level. If the multi track was running and the speakers were up I would have been blasted out of the room. I had stopped the playback and turned down the outputs (I turned down the amp or disconnected the powered speakers) before I loaded my show from a USB device. It was after I initialized the console to put it back the way it was and doing this was when I stumbled onto the bug.

 

[Matthew Knischewsky]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

There are a few functions on the LS-9 and M7 that are not recalled by the scene memories. Sounds like there was a delay set on outport 16. Outport settings are not stored or recalled with the memories. You can edit the outport settings by pressing the set up button until the outport page comes up. Select either outports 1-8 or 9-16 and you can access the settings.

The best way to truly default the LS-9 in to hold down scene memory when turning on the power then the console will ask if you want to initialize.

off the top of my head the user define keys and the user preferences also are not tied to scene memories.

Hope this helps

 

[Milt Hathaway]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

There are a few functions on the LS-9 and M7 that are not recalled by the scene memories. Sounds like there was a delay set on outport 16.

That's happened to me a few times. I've had to make a habit of checking the Output Port section before moving forward with any new event mix.

 

[Simon Coffin]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

Hi Gents,

Had a chance to look through the manual some more this morning and am starting to get a better idea of how the mixer works. Probably Matthew is right, that a previously set delay on Omni16 wasn't cleared by recalling scene 01 - Initial Setup. I won't have a chance to get my hands on the mixer again for the next few weeks, but when I do, I'll be sure to check it.

Another thing, is it me or is the screen hard to read? A few times I couldn't see a selection at all. An example, the High Pass on/off button in the Selected Channel screen. If I didn't know it was there I never would have seen it and this was not in bright sunlight, just a normally lit Hotel ballroom.

Ciao
Simon

 

[Matthew Knischewsky]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

There is a screen contrast adjustment on one of the set-up pages.

scene 000 is the default blank scene, I believe the comment field's default is "initial set up" so that can be somewhat confusing.

My advice is to always initialize the console unless you're the only one working on it. It's the fastest, best way to ensure everything is at the default value.

 

[Matt Tudor]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

There are a few functions on the LS-9 and M7 that are not recalled by the scene memories. Sounds like there was a delay set on outport 16. Outport settings are not stored or recalled with the memories. You can edit the outport settings by pressing the set up button until the outport page comes up. Select either outports 1-8 or 9-16 and you can access the settings.

The best way to truly default the LS-9 in to hold down scene memory when turning on the power then the console will ask if you want to initialize.

off the top of my head the user define keys and the user preferences also are not tied to scene memories.

Hope this helps

That's been my experience with this console. I found out the hard way that delays on output ports do not follow the scene memories. At one gig I had a ports 1 thru 4 driving delay stacks with about 50ms delay on the port. The next gig I recalled 000 scene thinking it would get me back to a "blank scene", but still had the delay on those outputs, which became monitor feeds. Something about that much delay on the monitors, messing with the musicians......8O~8-O~:shock:
It makes sense in a way. If you were mixing a band, and had a preset for each song, or a musical with a preset for each scene or act, there are things like output patching and delay, or the UDKs, that you wouldn't want to change every time you recalled a preset. I wish there was a way to do that with house EQ too, or at least make a couple spaces in the virtual rack recall safe.
As far as the 15/16 mix being tied to stereo bus, the only default relationship I'm aware of is the fact that mixes 13 thru 16 default as post fade mixes.

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

That's been my experience with this console. I found out the hard way that delays on output ports do not follow the scene memories. At one gig I had a ports 1 thru 4 driving delay stacks with about 50ms delay on the port. The next gig I recalled 000 scene thinking it would get me back to a "blank scene", but still had the delay on those outputs, which became monitor feeds. Something about that much delay on the monitors, messing with the musicians......8O~8-O~:shock:
It makes sense in a way. If you were mixing a band, and had a preset for each song, or a musical with a preset for each scene or act, there are things like output patching and delay, or the UDKs, that you wouldn't want to change every time you recalled a preset. I wish there was a way to do that with house EQ too, or at least make a couple spaces in the virtual rack recall safe.

Well, that's an argument for doing different shows with different show files, instead of different scenes.

I'm pretty sure you can recall safe the rack slots.


Oh, and here's a tip that will make things much nicer - you can adjust the screen contrast by holding down the Home key and turning the data wheel, instead of going into the Setup screens.

 

[Geoff Doane]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

Well, that's an argument for doing different shows with different show files, instead of different scenes. I'm pretty sure you can recall safe the rack slots. Oh, and here's a tip that will make things much nicer - you can adjust the screen contrast by holding down the Home key and turning the data wheel, instead of going into the Setup screens.

Great tip! I didn't know that. How did they expect you to adjust something if you can't read the menu ti find the adjustment? You can safe the individual racks, output and input patching, and various parameters for individual channels. I'm not sure if it's always been the way, or just happened with the most recent firmware update. If you do update the firmware, back up the console first. Mine reset itself the most recent time, unlike the other updates. And you'll also need the most recent version of Studio Manager for the new firmware. As someone else described it to me, what you save on the USB stick is a "show", and the individual scenes are scenes within that show. Some things, like sampling rate, and user name and password, are above even the "show" level. GTD

 

[Matt Tudor]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

Great tip! I didn't know that. How did they expect you to adjust something if you can't read the menu ti find the adjustment? You can safe the individual racks, output and input patching, and various parameters for individual channels. I'm not sure if it's always been the way, or just happened with the most recent firmware update. If you do update the firmware, back up the console first. Mine reset itself the most recent time, unlike the other updates. And you'll also need the most recent version of Studio Manager for the new firmware. As someone else described it to me, what you save on the USB stick is a "show", and the individual scenes are scenes within that show. Some things, like sampling rate, and user name and password, are above even the "show" level. GTD

Didn't know you could recall-safe rack spaces. I remember looking for that function when we first bought the board and couldn't find it, must have been an upgrade somewhere. That's gonna make my life a lot easier. The firmware upgrade reinitializing all memories surprised me too, and before it was all said and done I had to upgrade both Studio manager and reinstall the DME driver.

 

[Matt Tudor]

Re: Unusual Yamaha LS-9 issue

Well, that's an argument for doing different shows with different show files, instead of different scenes.

In theory, yes. But I work on at a university campus with a lot of repeat gigs. Until recently, we just kept regular shows saved as scenes that we could recall as needed. Saves me having 20 some show files floating around on a bunch of USB sticks, and I don't have to worry about making sure the tech running the show has the right file. We're starting to see enough different set-ups for shows now though, it's becoming time to look at some other options.