Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

S

Stuart Gerrie

Freshman
Jan 12, 2013
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Hi folks I’ve been looking around a lot and can’t really find a good answer to my question. So sorry if this is something that’s been asked 100 times before but I hope someone’s got some good advice.

I’m looking to upgrade my subs which are used a couple of times per week for my wedding band playing for 100-200 people, inside for 3hrs a night, in small-medium sized venues.

The system I currently have is a Peavey PV2600 amp (which I plan to continue using and have 2 of)
Peavey :: PV® 2600
and two Wharfedale BLX-15B which I believe are discontinued but look the same spec wise as these only 20cm taller with two ports on the front.
DLX-15B - DLX SERIES - Wharfedale Pro
and I use 2 - 12 inch tops with them.

So I’m fairly happy with the job these have done however I would like a bit more SPL so that I could use 1sub at smaller venues and 2 if required. Nothing too big or heavy for the van though and I have 2 PV2600 amps so I could run 1 per sub if needed for more power.

So let’s say I’m willing to spend up to £500 per box would you.


  1. Spend £200ish on a new 15” woofer and keep the cabs eg. Fane Colossus or eminence kilomax etc.
  2. Spend £400ish on a new 15” woofer and keep the cabs eg. Faital Pro 15XL1400
  3. Try to sell the cabs and get a new EV ELX118 or dB Technologies Arena SW 18 or something (so this also brings in the question of 18s or 15s)

I know the safe option would be a new box but if I found a driver that matched the cabs and spent the same money on a driver as a whole new sub could I get better results ...or is it likely?

Thanks
 
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Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Option 3.

Someone who understands this better than me will explain in more detail, but the dimensions of the cabinet have been specifically chosen for the driver that is in it. Finding another driver that has the same requirements for cabinet capacity and porting will likely be difficult. Have a look in the DIY audio section for the kinds of factors that need to be considered.

Chris
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart,

I un-bolded all the text in your post, because yikes.

It would be extremely helpful if you posted your location. Especially in the UK, where I assume you are, these kinds of tweaky lower price items are totally different than in other markets.

My question would be, if the cabs are solid and well constructed and worth investing in, will they support a stouter woofer? Will it fit, and will the ports be able to move enough air to support its excursion? Putting a new woofer in might get you a gain in performance, or it might not. The highest output 18" in the world will be wasted if the cabinet volume, tuning frequency, and port size conspire to prevent it from reaching its capabilities. I think we are in an era where most cabinets are not limited by the power handling of the woofer, but by the ability of the amp to drive it to full excursion and the ability of the ports to handle that air movement.
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Thanks guys,

I live in South Ayrshire in the South West of Scotland.

Ok so assuming the cabs were solid enough what variables do I have to consider other than internal volume, port width and port diameter?

Thanks
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart Gerrie said:
Thanks guys,

I live in South Ayrshire in the South West of Scotland.

Ok so assuming the cabs were solid enough what variables do I have to consider other than internal volume, port width and port diameter?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Stuart,

The variables are the TS parameters of the drivers you would upgrade to, and port velocity concerns if the upgrade has higher Xmax.
Doubling Xmax of the driver has the potential to increase output by 6 dB (if the air is not blown out of the ports) but will require 6 dB more power.
Going to a tapped horn design can give 6 dB more output with the same power (and another 6 dB if a driver with double the excursion is used), but requires a larger box.
David Mcbean's free program, Hornresp, can help decide if another driver will work better than the ones you have in the box you own, if you have the TS parameters for the speakers in the box.

Art
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

You don't say if yours are 4 or 8 ohms? In any case the present drivers are rated at 700wrms so you probably won't find a louder driver. If you are using the 8 ohm version is your PV2600 bridged into them? Also make sure the "low cut" is engaged so you're not wasting amp power on frequencies those subs can't reproduce.
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Ron Kimball said:
In any case the present drivers are rated at 700wrms so you probably won't find a louder driver.
Click to expand...

It is unlikely you'll find an enormous jump in output due entirely to power handling, although there's another 3dB or so to be had there in premium woofers. However, it is likely that there will be a woofer with higher sensitivity, and that higher end woofers are more usable near maximum output. Who cares if your woofer takes 3Kw if it starts to fall apart 6dB before its specs?
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

I've found Wharfedale drivers to be decent. Their 98db@1w sensitivity (1/2 space I assume) is believable although I haven't heard those particular subs. The "Kilomax" he mentioned is notorious for it's low sensitivity, no?
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

"David Mcbean's free program, Hornresp, can help decide if another driver will work better than the ones you have in the box you own, if you have the TS parameters for the speakers in the box."

Ok thanks I'll have to phone wharfedale for the specs cos I'm struggling to find the info online and then I'll try that.

Ron, I've got the 4ohm version and have been using the low cut. I'll post the TS parameters if I get them. The Kilomax does seem to have a bad rep, everywhere I look people seem to be saying the Kappalite 3015LF www.pulseonline.com/eminence/kappalite-3015lf.pdf is the best Eminence driver for the money.

Ok so if I really wanted more SPL would a tapped horn design be the way to go?
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart Gerrie said:
Ron, I've got the 4ohm version and have been using the low cut.
Click to expand...
Those should thump pretty good. Don't be afraid to get the DDT lights flashing a little bit :) - but don't expect miracles from a 15" sub (or even a 1x18).
Ok so if I really wanted more SPL would a tapped horn design be the way to go?
Click to expand...
I have a pair of TH-Mini's that are probably 2x the output of those Wharfedale subs.
 
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Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart Gerrie said:
Ron, I've got the 4ohm version and have been using the low cut. I'll post the TS parameters if I get them. The Kilomax does seem to have a bad rep, everywhere I look people seem to be saying the Kappalite 3015LF www.pulseonline.com/eminence/kappalite-3015lf.pdf is the best Eminence driver for the money.

Ok so if I really wanted more SPL would a tapped horn design be the way to go?
Click to expand...
Yes, tapped horns can give you around 6 dB more output than an optimal bass reflex, but will be larger.
The Kilomax is rather useless because it runs out of Xmax far before it burns up, it can't really do much LF output, but is hard to destroy.

One problem with using a lightweight cone like the 3015LF in a tapped horn is it will distort badly before reaching Xmax.
If you want to go the TH route, the B&C21SW152 would be the real monster, but using a Neodymium magnet structure makes it super expensive.
The BC18SW115 also is neo, but the BC18TBW100 has almost the same specs using a much less expensive (heavier) ceramic magnet.
The BC 12TBX100 (as used in the DSL TH-Mini), 15TBX100 (used in the DSL TH-115) are also quite good in TH, but don't have as much Xmax or power handling as the BC18SW115 (used in the DSL TH-118).

One big factor to consider is doubling cones (or cone area) adds 3 dB sensitivity- 400 watts put in to two subs will be as loud as 800 put in to one.
Since each speaker only needs to get 200 watts instead of 800, power compression is not an issue, and distortion is far less.
Four speakers would be 6 dB louder than one, 12 dB louder if powered at the same level.
When you take that and power compression in to account, two lower power speakers will outperform one high power speaker, and may cost less, especially when you take in the fact that you will only need half the amp power to achieve the same level.

The downside is more space is used, which is why I opted for a pair of BC18SW115-4 in my system, I have no more room to fit any more subs in the trailer.
Had I been aware of the B&C21SW152, I would have used it, but it would require far more power than I have to reach full output, upwards of 10,000 watts.

That said, a pair of BC18SW115-4 in my free Keystone design (or DSL's TH-118) each using a bridged Crest CA-9 can put out more clean output in the 40 Hz range than eight Meyers 650P dual 18".

Art
 
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Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

So many choices!!!

I had a look and the DSL TH stuff looks awesome!!!

I'm now thinking of going for a home made box...and when I say home made what I mean is, one of my mates is a tech teacher with access to the materials, machinery and has the skills to do a good job of it and is willing to help.

So I'll leave the Wharfedales as they are so I can sell or keep them and if I can get hold of a good design I'll go ahead and make a new sub "myself".

Design wise I'm as far as knowing I would like more output and lighter if possible (less than 180lbs).

So I would really be looking for a design for a single B&C15TBX100 (nothing more expensive) or 2-15s or 2-12s at half the price for example.

So is there a drawback to using a TH sub vs a front loaded sub other than the size difference? Why is everyone not using them for the extra 6Db?

Art Welter said:
One big factor to consider is doubling cones (or cone area) adds 3 dB sensitivity- 400 watts put in to two subs will be as loud as 800 put in to one.
Since each speaker only needs to get 200 watts instead of 800, power compression is not an issue, and distortion is far less.
Four speakers would be 6 dB louder than one, 12 dB louder if powered at the same level.
When you take that and power compression in to account, two lower power speakers will outperform one high power speaker, and may cost less, especially when you take in the fact that you will only need half the amp power to achieve the same level.
Art
Click to expand...

Right so would a well designed dual 15" front loaded sub (with two inexpensive 500W drivers) running at 1000Watts total for example always be louder than a single 15" sub with a more exensive driver running at 1000W or even 2/3K? Even the best 15" driver you can find? Assuming the cab designs were simillar.

Sorry for all the questions I'm just trying to get my head round all this and try and work out if I will be able to equal or beat the performance of my two Wharfedales with a single 15" design.

Stuart
 
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Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart Gerrie said:
Design wise I'm as far as knowing I would like more output and lighter if possible (less than 180lbs).



So is there a drawback to using a TH sub vs a front loaded sub other than the size difference? Why is everyone not using them for the extra 6Db?
Click to expand...
When considering weight DO NOT skimp on the bracing. It can make a all the difference.

The reason more people aren't using Tapped horns is called a patent.
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Ivan Beaver said:
When considering weight DO NOT skimp on the bracing. It can make a all the difference.

The reason more people aren't using Tapped horns is called a patent.
Click to expand...

Ok I'll bear that in mind.

So would I be struggling to get my hands on a design for a TH sub?
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart Gerrie said:
Ok I'll bear that in mind.

So would I be struggling to get my hands on a design for a TH sub?
Click to expand...
There is quite an interest in the DIY tapped horns. There are also computer programs.

HOWEVER-I have seen a good number of them-and there is one "unaccounted for" part of the design that I see missing in most of them. This means they do not perform as well as they could. NO- I will not tell you what that is-so don't ask.

I was talking to a rental company in Germany yesterday. They said they had an interesting rental. A guy rented 2 TH118's and then brought them back a couple of days later-and told what he did with them.

There was a group of DIY tapped horn builders who were having a get to gather. They wanted to have a "measurement party". They were 500 miles from the rental company-so they shipped the cabinets to their location. They had various versions of their own single 18" "tapped horns", about the size of the TH118.

The first did not trust the sensitivity numbers Danley states. WHen they measured the Danley boxes they found that the measurements were actually 0.1 to 0.2dB higher than the Danley numbers. I always go towards the conservative side when stating the numbers for the spec sheet.

The best cabinet any of them had was about 6dB lower in sensitivity than the Danley box.

Now I am sure there are some people that are getting closer in SPL. But the Tapped horn is NOT a normal box-when it comes to how the box and the driver interact. Change one and it starts to fall apart quickly.

Believe me-all "tapped horns" are NOT created equal. So be careful about making "general" assumptions.
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart Gerrie said:
So many choices!!!

I had a look and the DSL TH stuff looks awesome!!!
Click to expand...

It is, Tom has been quite an innovator for his entire career.

I'm now thinking of going for a home made box...and when I say home made what I mean is, one of my mates is a tech teacher with access to the materials, machinery and has the skills to do a good job of it and is willing to help.
Click to expand...

That is great, I'd encourage building subs at this point. Just remember, when or if you decide to sell them, don't expect any more money than what the used drivers would fetch in your local market. The reality is that you may easily make something that is a good performer, but it will have little resale value-use them to make money providing sound hire is the real object.

So I'll leave the Wharfedales as they are so I can sell or keep them and if I can get hold of a good design I'll go ahead and make a new sub "myself".
Click to expand...

As suggested earlier, save them as is, and sell them at some point.

Design wise I'm as far as knowing I would like more output and lighter if possible (less than 180lbs). So I would really be looking for a design for a single B&C15TBX100 (nothing more expensive) or 2-15s or 2-12s at half the price for example.
Click to expand...

Single 15" sub enclosures might be very handy for transport, depending on what your main vehicle might be, otherwise, dual 15" cabinets.

Also, remember that a subwoofer design, all other things being pretty equal to your existing subs, with lower response, will also sound louder(and better) once integrated into your system. If you don't(or can't, because of size restrictions since lower responses require larger cabinet designs typically), then looking at designs that are higher in sensitivity/efficiency and power handling are the way to go.

Given the budget restraints you've indicated, I'd tend to look at more efficient drivers with greater excursion capacity than the stock Wharfedale drivers you have now. Although buy the best drivers you can afford. I think if you can deploy a dual 15" cabinet design, it should be fairly easy to come up with a design that outperforms the Wharfedales.

It's been a while, but I seem to recall modeling some decent designs with the Eminence 15" Kappalites, but B&C certainly have a nice range of drivers, and you should be able to find very suitable drivers from them as well.

Best regards,

John
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart Gerrie said:
Design wise I'm as far as knowing I would like more output and lighter if possible (less than 180lbs).

So I would really be looking for a design for a single B&C15TBX100 (nothing more expensive) or 2-15s or 2-12s at half the price for example.

So is there a drawback to using a TH sub vs a front loaded sub other than the size difference? Why is everyone not using them for the extra 6Db?

Right so would a well designed dual 15" front loaded sub (with two inexpensive 500W drivers) running at 1000Watts total for example always be louder than a single 15" sub with a more exensive driver running at 1000W or even 2/3K? Even the best 15" driver you can find? Assuming the cab designs were simillar.

Stuart
Click to expand...
Stuart,

The answer is yes, a well designed dual 15" front loaded sub with two drivers running at 1000 Watts will be slightly louder than a single 15" sub with a driver of double the excursion using 4000 watts. The down side is double the cabinet size, which requires a larger truck, and more warehouse space, and set up help.

Although patents can avoid a direct copy for commercial use, as a DIY you are welcome to make TH.
Other than patents, the reason more are not using TH are several.
Rider acceptance is one, X many dual 18" cabinets may be specified. It is very difficult to convince someone that one TH (with a single 15mm Xmax 18"driver) could match four "old school" dual 18" that use drivers with less than half the excursion.
That said, putting a pair of high excursion 18" in a small BR cabinet will outperform a TH in the same size by a small margin, though using double the power and drivers.
For those with big budgets, and limited space, BR are still viable, and those selling drivers and amplifiers make more profit with BR.
Then there is the issue of alignment, a TH needs the tops delayed to properly align, while a BR will generally be within 1/4 wavelength at the crossover point and no delay maybe needed.
Few seem to understand this, and come away after hearing a poorly aligned horn system thinking that the horn sounds bad, when it was a set up problem.
Then there is the actual design, as Ivan mentioned, small details in TH design can make rather large differences, while a ported box with adequate sized ports is an easy deal.
Using Hornresp or Akabak one can design a good TH (or BR, or FLH, or FLH/BR, etc. etc.) but getting the actual physical unit to match when each fold makes a difference is difficult.

At any rate, there are a number of good designs available. As I can unconditionally say that mine works great (if time aligned), I'll give you some links:

Tapped Horn Vs. Bass Reflex Case Study - diyAudio

This one has plans:
Keystone Sub Using 18,15,&12 Inch Speakers - diyAudio

A horn extender gave a 3 dB average increase in forward gain all the way down to the LF corner:
Horn Extender/Wave-guide for TH - diyAudio

A word of warning: once you go down this rabbit hole, don't expect to emerge for a while...

Art
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Art Welter said:
Stuart,


A word of warning: once you go down this rabbit hole, don't expect to emerge for a while...

Art
Click to expand...

All I feel like I've done for the last while is read up on subs, cab design, driver specs, pros and cons of everything under the sun...........

I think I'll leave those links until tomorrow.

TH is starting to sound a bit over kill for my setup now and pretty complicated to get right.

Wharfedale were pretty helpfull, I spoke to a few people and managed to find out that they don't have the specs for the drivers which is making it quite hard to know if I'm designing a cab round a higher or lower spec driver.

Anyway thanks for all the advice so far, it's been really helpfull!!

Next question. How accurate do you think the results are from WinISD?

Thanks

Stuart
 
Re: Upgrading Subs – New Driver or new Sub –What would you do?

Stuart Gerrie said:
Next question. How accurate do you think the results are from WinISD?
Click to expand...
Stuart,

WinISD, bass box pro, and Hornresp all seem quite close in simulation vs reality, though Hornresp will show you a few things (even for BR) that are not available in the other two.
At any rate, the difference placement of the sub in a room makes will make the minor differences in the sims look small by comparison.
I highly recommend Hornresp, it is one program that can do nearly any type of design, while the other two are more limited to BR and sealed.
Being able to compare BR to a TH or FLH using the same driver and cabinet volume parameters is instructive.
 
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