using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

D

David Luscombe

Sophomore
Mar 24, 2011
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Hi All

in a previous post there was discussion about using "wye or Y" cables and this link was posted at my request

http://www.rane.com/note109.html

so as to not hijack that thread to much i though i would post this here.

So my question is that if i build one of the summing units for mics as per this link can i use phantom power and also can i build it using the circuit provided can i make one that would be 3 inputs down to one input?

thank for the help

Cheers Dave
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

When you throw phantom power into the mix, using simple resistor summing circuits isn't going to do you well. The phantom power will also have to run through the resistor, thus reducing the phantom voltage. A typical microphone will have an impedance of 200 ohms. The circuits drawn would series 950 ohms with that 200 ohms, thus dropping the voltage significantly. If you started with 48 volts, you would effectively end up with around 10 volts to the mic. While some mics will work with voltages that low, others most certainly will give you grief. Definitely not a good idea to use this with a phantom powered system.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Thanks for that Brian, am doing a job for a church where they want to now mic the drums and what not with only 20 channels available and only have mics available that they currently own. what we are doing is only tempoary to see if they like it, if not they will go back to what they have but i have to do this on the cheap so yeah......its an interesting concept challenge though but i was sure this would not work

cheers dave
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

David Luscombe said:
Thanks for that Brian, am doing a job for a church where they want to now mic the drums and what not with only 20 channels available and only have mics available that they currently own. what we are doing is only tempoary to see if they like it, if not they will go back to what they have but i have to do this on the cheap so yeah......its an interesting concept challenge though but i was sure this would not work

cheers dave
Click to expand...

The real answer, as you know, is they need a mixer/snake/system that fits their needs. The temporary answer is single condenser to pick up the whole kit plus kick mic, unless the rest of the system can't handle the LF.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Caleb Dick said:
The real answer, as you know, is they need a mixer/snake/system that fits their needs. The temporary answer is single condenser to pick up the whole kit plus kick mic, unless the rest of the system can't handle the LF.
Click to expand...

You could pick up one of the ultra-cheap mackie-berhinger-yamaha type mini mixers and just submix the drum channels. You might be surprised that the cost of the mixer is not very much more than the cost of the components and a project box to build what you are trying to build there. And it offers proper mixing ability plus phantom.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Tim Weaver said:
You could pick up one of the ultra-cheap mackie-berhinger-yamaha type mini mixers and just submix the drum channels. You might be surprised that the cost of the mixer is not very much more than the cost of the components and a project box to build what you are trying to build there. And it offers proper mixing ability plus phantom.
Click to expand...

+1 on this. And it is always handy to have a small utility mixer in your kit. I have three B*********** units that even allow inserts on the first two (of 5) channels. Another interesting feature is that they have the option to run on a 9v battery. Excellent little sub-mixer on the cheap.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Caleb Dick said:
The real answer, as you know, is they need a mixer/snake/system that fits their needs. The temporary answer is single condenser to pick up the whole kit plus kick mic, unless the rest of the system can't handle the LF.
Click to expand...
+1. The combiner idea isn't going to work. Either get a cheap aux mixer, re-arrange the channel count so you can accomodate the mics you want, or rent/loan them a mixer that is big enough to do the job to see if they like it.

FWIW, I've never seen a situation where a church (or any other group for that matter) with minimal sound equipment benefits from close micing drums other than perhaps the kick. In the grand scheme of things, there are always about 15 things that need to be addressed first - speakers that point in the right place with adequate output capacity, acoustic treatment, etc.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Thanks for the reply's

I personally would never work this way in a pink fit BUT...for the purpose of this excercise it will have to do. some background to what is happening is this.

they currently have drums, bass, 2 guitars, 2 acoustic guitars, 6-7 singers and a keyboard on the stage. The drummer currently has a set of headphones for monitors and everyone else is on wedges of all shapes and sizes. So what is happening ATM is that the drummer is belting the crap out of his kit because he cannot hear his kit at all......and so the cycle begins. What we are proposing to do is change the set up, cut back to 5 singers and rearrange thing so that the drums have SOME ability to be miked so what i have come up with is this.

1.Kick
2.Snare
3.Toms (Two Mics summed to one channel)
4.Overheads L
5.Overheads R
6.Bass
7.Guitar 1
8.Guitar 2
9.Acoustic 1
10.Acoustic 2
11.Keys 1
12.Keys 2
13/14.CD
15/16.Reverb Return
17.B.V
18.B.V
19.B.V
20.B.V
21.Keys Vox
22.Main Vox
23.Radio Headset
24.Handheld Radio

So with the drums which to this point have never been miked, the point of miking them is for the In-Ears for a start so that the drummer can hear himself and perhaps then they can be used for FOH is wanted as well. Also for the phantom issue i asked about, I will just use a phantom power supply before the summing box so that is all good.

Also this is all Very Temporary as if this works out the an Ilive or Similar will be bought so this is to be done on a SMALL budget. Also as for the time and cost involved in making the summing boxs and what not is not an issue as these will belong to me and i will be using them for my own work anyways.

One other note, i have attached a schematic for a Stereo In Di with a Summing box on the end for Mono out. The reason i have this is that one of the Keyboards that will be being used is a cheap one with only a headphones out and so a mono cable into the headphone socket(which is what the curently have) makes some crazy distorted sound sometimes. I assume this if because either L or R is being shorted to earth.

Anyways its a bit of a long post but i hope that this explains it a little and can anyone tell me if the schematic looks good, it is just a conglomeration of a few schematics and ideas

Cheers Dave


View attachment Summing DI.pdf

edit: PDF now works.
 
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Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Why not just take a pair of mics (and maybe the kick) and put them only in the drum monitor mix?
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

I just recently did something similar for a church drummer. Used a Berhinger mixer and ran, on the 4 mic ins, kick, snare, and 2 overheads. Then on one of the line ins he gets an in ear mix of the rest of the band. Plans are for a click track in the future so they can play live to video projection. This setup could work for you as well, because the drummer would simply blend his drums in to the in ear mix you already give him. A bonus feature is that the little berry mixers have a built in reverb that this drummer really likes.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Dick - The reason for not being quite that simple which was one of the options is that the available mics, as far as i was concerned did not have the qualtiy to do just stereo overheads, which i would have done if the mics where there.

Tim - this was an option until as i just said to Dick was that they want to use the mics as FOH maybe, so the option had to be there. but there will maybe be a small mixer added for the use of a click and what not in the future as well.

Cheers Dave
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Up to this point we've been talking about wyeing multiple mics to the same input, and all of the above challenges are real - phantom power reduction through the resistor network as well as multiple mics, etc. In the scenario you mentioned in your last post (if I understood what you meant correctly), it may work the other way for you:

You can split the overhead mics into two mixers - the submixer for the drummer, and also the main system. This is commonly done - one set of stage inputs runs to both a monitor console and a FOH console. The methods vary from simple wye adapters to fancy isolated splitter snakes, but if the overheads are the main hitch here, you may be able to run with the reverse gender wye and skip the resistor network altogether.

I still think it's a little incongruous that a church with a cheap keyboard that only has a headphone out and no good drum mics would be contemplating an ILive?! It seems that a few other upgrades on the list might be a higher priority than a $15,000+ mixer.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Ok this is getting harder to explain the parts of this. TJ it may seem as you said that they have the no good drum mics and a keyboard will jump to an Ilive, well its not Quite like that. The cheap Keyboard is the second Keys that may be used, i did find out today that one of the players will bring his good keyboard and the church owns a good keyboard as well so the cheap keyboard is out, they also own various other very good quality instruments including a really nice kit. FOH is currently EV X-array (three way tri amped box) that sound pretty sweet might i add. The drums have never been miked because it was not required really as the minister then liked it soft, but with a change of minister comes other changes hence what is happening.

I will be attempting to "wye" the two tom mics and see how that pans out. There is one other reason i have neglected to share in regards to why the drums have to be miked back to the console instead of just to a little mixer is that the drummer may not be the only one getting an ears mix so need that available to others as well.

Sorry for not explaining some of this earlier but i thought i did but upon reading what i wrote......well i did not LOL.

thanks for all the help and suggestions, but please keep the ideas coming

cheers dave
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

TJ Cornish said:
I still think it's a little incongruous that a church with a cheap keyboard that only has a headphone out and no good drum mics would be contemplating an ILive?! It seems that a few other upgrades on the list might be a higher priority than a $15,000+ mixer.
Click to expand...

I saw the same thing. The first thing that went through my head was that if you just downsized you budget on a mixer, you'd have all the money in the world for accessories and things needed. A little sub mixer will run you around $100. The packaging of an iLive will cost you more than that.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

OK so, with the new minister there has been a commitment to upgrade, hence the talk of console and this will also include mics and related accessories. There is also a new musical director hence the large change in direction. This project of using what little gear they had was simply a proof of concept and that it will work and will be worth the investment in gear. They had there first run with the new setup on sunday and the improvement was such with putting the drummer on ears for a start was that now they are able to use the drum mics in FOH as he has been able to play a LOT softer and thats with out being asked and he is a lot more comfortable with playing and what he is hearing. So we are now going to put some of the muso's on ears and see how that goes, if it works as well as the last weekends improvement then i think the new gear will be coming very soon. I hope this makes a little more sense, if not i appologize.

cheers dave
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

David Luscombe said:
OK so, with the new minister there has been a commitment to upgrade, hence the talk of console and this will also include mics and related accessories. There is also a new musical director hence the large change in direction. This project of using what little gear they had was simply a proof of concept and that it will work and will be worth the investment in gear. They had there first run with the new setup on sunday and the improvement was such with putting the drummer on ears for a start was that now they are able to use the drum mics in FOH as he has been able to play a LOT softer and thats with out being asked and he is a lot more comfortable with playing and what he is hearing. So we are now going to put some of the muso's on ears and see how that goes, if it works as well as the last weekends improvement then i think the new gear will be coming very soon. I hope this makes a little more sense, if not i appologize.

cheers dave
Click to expand...

That sums it up well, I think. Thanks for the update.

Now let me try to understand this.... the drummer lightened up? Glory Be!

The primary secret to IEMs are the fit & seal. Bad fit, no seal. No seal, no LF. Every user will have a preference for among generic sleeves, and eventually most players get molds.

It sounds like the new leadership is committing to a higher level of technology. Enjoy the ride!

Tim Mc
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Funnily enough Tim i went to the sunday night service, as i dont go to this church normally and had my spl meter out and it was sitting at about 84db A weighted and that was about the average. This church is only about a 350 seater so i was very happy at the lack of noise even when the drummer was crashing his ride. So all up very happy with the miracle with the drums in particular!

Cheers Dave
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

You can "Y" two identical dynamic mics no prob and no resistors needed. I've even done it on vocal mics and didn't detect any issue except having to turn the gain up a bit. The mics still sounded the same as when they were not Y'd. The resistor trick is needed for combining active outputs.
 
Re: using "wye or Y" cables and associated questions

Ron Kimball said:
You can "Y" two identical dynamic mics no prob and no resistors needed. I've even done it on vocal mics and didn't detect any issue except having to turn the gain up a bit. The mics still sounded the same as when they were not Y'd. The resistor trick is needed for combining active outputs.
Click to expand...

must +1 this comment...

every time the subject of combining mics comes up and people float out the resistor network summing box schematics i think of the hundreds [yes hundreds] of times i have summed dynamic mics with a simple y cable with completely acceptable results. in fact, at the company i used to work for all the xlr y cables in the workbox were 2F-1M, since summing mics was needed more often than splitting signals. we could always slap a M-M turnaround on one leg and get a splitter. of course i also sometimes found the y cable with turnarounds on all 3 legs to get a 1F-2M splitter. ah, stage hands.... :)
 
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