When to call it?

Ryan Lantzy

Ryan Lantzy

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Jan 10, 2011
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Allegheny Mountains
Mods, feel free to move this to another forum if appropriate. I think it applies to just about anyone but would like to hear more insight from more of the varsity folks with years of wisdom so I put it here.

Whether it's a 40 ft high stage, a festival tent, or just a no frills gig outside, foul whether can spell disaster with high winds, rain, and/or lightning.

In light of the stage collapse and other bad weather events when do you just say, "sorry, this is too dangerous to deal with." All of us play different roles, worker bees, owners, mixer-persons, production management, etc. When does one step up and be the show spoiler? Should worker bees just know their place or should they speak up when their instincts say so?

Obviously predicting the worst is an effort in futility. Should there just be better standards for crowd/crew safety? Better signage and warnings about the risks of being near or working on portable staging? Better evacuation routes? Super strength stages? How many systems out there use IP67 connectors everywhere in the system for supply level voltages?

In many respects I think the local festival market might be even more dangerous. Tents are dubiously erected at church and small town festivals. Little thought is given to the placement of these structures related to water run off. Few pay attention to proper electrical standards (or even give thought to them).

I'm honestly surprised that more of these accidents don't happen now.
 
Re: When to call it?

We operate a small mobile stage. It's roughly 24ft x 12ft so dwarfed by many of the other structures under discussion here, but is big enough to require inspection.

In the UK the local council is responsible for inspection of the structure. If the overall height from the ground exceeds 12ft or the platform height exceeds 2ft then an inspection is mandatory. We have operated the stage for two seasons now. Inspections have ranged from a serious, in-depth look, to a cursory glance and a tick in a box. Even if they don't go through every detail with our stage, the inspectors would be a lot more thorough with something that looks homebrewed or they haven't seen before.

Our own stage is a custom-built unit, and since the manufacturer didn't have any certification for a one-off construction we ended up getting a test done ourselves to satisfy the first council we came across. (This entailed loading weights onto the stage with a forklift and checking for deflection in the structure). The council officer did his own calculations to work out a maximum wind speed that he was happy with.

A friend of mine worked a gig where a truck stage was supplied. Council inspector was (justifiably) unhappy with the load capacity, and insisted that the company added more bracing underneath, and also stipulated that they had to retighten some of their supports every hour, on the hour, since he suspected that they could work loose. And it was made very clear to them that their stage would not be allowed to be erected in the city again without quite substantial modification.

I would expect that a structure the size of the one which failed in Indianna would have been gone over with a fine tooth comb if it were erected in the UK. (Plans would be scrutinised beforehand and the final structure inspected to ensure it matches the design). The potential problems that have been alleged (missing ballast, lack of cross bracing) would have been spotted and if not rectified the council will pull the event licence.

However, there are still gaps. I suspect plenty people put structures up and just don't bother telling the council. Outside of a city centre or major festival, it's unlikely that anyone would get "caught". Some of the worst structures I've been around have been put up on private ground and there is nobody policing them. But I'm not sure how the local festival market can be made safer without employing an army of inspectors, especially outside of metropolitan areas where it simply isn't possible to get an inspector round more than a handful of events in one day.

Perhaps the biggest positive effect of the disaster in Indianna will be raising the public's awareness of the importance of structural safety. If the coverage of the stage falling makes bands think twice about what they are playing under, or inspires someone on a local festival's organising committee to have a closer look at what the lowest bidder is going to assemble for them, that can only be a good thing.
 
Re: When to call it?

Stuart Høgg said:
Perhaps the biggest positive effect of the disaster in Indianna will be raising the public's awareness of the importance of structural safety. If the coverage of the stage falling makes bands think twice about what they are playing under, or inspires someone on a local festival's organising committee to have a closer look at what the lowest bidder is going to assemble for them, that can only be a good thing.
Click to expand...

Well said. As for local festivals, many times it's what the festival committe builds!
 
Re: When to call it?

I had to be the fall guy for two consecutive weekends this summer. After setting and sound checking both of these events we had rain storms that blew water onto equipment and one instance soaked a carpeted stage that was provided by the event planners. The hard about the second event with the carpet stage was I did a meticulous walk through with the venue and told then what we needed as far as a stage size and tent size to rent for us. The decided to get s slightly smaller tent and left parts of the stage uncovered and in the same breath demanded the stage be carpeted because they didn't like the look of the "silver lines" (we call that rigidity), It rained 30 minutes prior to the event start and I had to call it. My guys would have been working on a wet stage with questionable damp water in places that we couldn't see.

I had venue personnel unhappy with my decision but I was able to come up with a solution that ended up working out in the end. I guess that's part two of the equation- it never hurts to have a plan b in your head so that when you have to call it you can offer up a suggestion as to how to keep the show going.

PS- Never hire Active Productions out of Atlanta to manage your event. They pressured me to do the gig anyways with disregard to the safety of the guys on and around the stage. I wasn't about to give in so that wouldn't be the fall guys for the event being called.
 
Re: When to call it?

I make a weather call when it's obvious nobody else is going to do it. The criteria are that the conditions, existing or imminent, present a threat to the safety of the performers, audience and crew. Lighting? We'll wait it out, but in Kansas or other Great Plains states if you see lightning to the West or South, you'd better be tarping your gear. It's gonna rain big and blow hard *really soon now*.

Rain: if it's pretty much straight down (seldom, see above) we'll keep running if the roof doesn't take on water and the roof towers or soundwings don't have a river running around or through them. If we can't keep the stage reasonably dry and the back line electrical service dry, we consult with the artist representative and then go to the promoter.

Wind: Kansas and Oklahoma can have 105°F days with 30MPH winds that gust higher. I have seen acts have gear blown off the stage on dry summer days. From the provider perspective, if we can keep the PA from swinging and the roof techs have their rig under control we're good. If we can't keep the PA from kiting, we'll bring it in till there is weight on the wing deck. As was mentioned elsewhere, it might suck, sonically, but the show can go on.

Agree with your observation that the local community festival market. They really aren't prepared to pay what it costs to "do it right." They don't have the budget or, if they do, they have a committee member who'll "save us a whole bunch of money by doing it himself" and we're back to the same place.

Have fun, stay safe.

Tim Mc
 
Re: When to call it?

It's easy for me to shake my head at this and say "it would never happen here" but I know it has, however we largely don't have the same weather systems in the UK and apart from the steppes in Russia I doubt anywhere in Europe does so weather accidents are rare, building or rigging accident are far more common here.
What we do seem to have a better grip on is a national/international standard for the construction and inspection of these structures. I think it was Christian from Germany that questioned the size and seemingly spindly construction of the roof structures and I have to agree the big systems I've seen in the US seem to be very simple structures for their size and possible loading from wind and rain.
In the UK large events tend to use some form of the "Orbit" stage it is a kind of dome structure which is internally braced and uses the main platform as an integrated part of the structure to assist in ballast and providing a strong footing. These things were probably developed more to keep the rain off the performers as much as anything else but because of the strict laws here they have ended up very strong and reasonably windproof, most have some sort of sacrificial panel that'll blow out or can be quickly released if the windspeed goes too high to minimise the windage.
In the photo I'll lay odds that every structure ( inc the crane)has a windspeed indicator and some sort of alarm attached not just for max speed but also for a rising trend in the windspeed which is what the decision to lower the structure or evacuate it is usually based on, ie if your max allowed speed is 60 Knots then if the average speed goes above 40 and continues to rise plans should be set in motion to secure the structures, the actual figures will be discussed on site etc by the stage co and the local enforcing officer and will take into account local geography and average weather for the area and will be part of the event licencing application .
I really hope that some sort of national standard comes out of this tradegy because in IMO if the big guys suffer from this kind of thing what chance have you of regulating the "backyard specials" G
 

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Re: When to call it?

Ryan Lantzy said:
In light of the stage collapse and other bad weather events when do you just say, "sorry, this is too dangerous to deal with." All of us play different roles, worker bees, owners, mixer-persons, production management, etc. When does one step up and be the show spoiler? Should worker bees just know their place or should they speak up when their instincts say so?
Click to expand...

When I am hired to supply production, it is made clear to whoever is signing the check that I am able to call off the show "for safety reasons". eg: provided stage is un-safe, weather, and so forth.
My reasonong usually goes along the lines of:
Misting, or light rain - show goes on until water starts pooling on the stage. At that point, power is cut. As long as we can clear the puddles, we can go back on.
If I see lightning, Show's over. Power is cut, stage is cleared, audience is asked to seek shelter either in their cars, or at whatever local building is available. (A lot of my outdoor shows are in Church or communty center parking lots)
A couple of times, we have re-set in the Church basement, and continued with the show. It's amazing how fast FOH and Stage can "get inside" when a couple of hundred people each grab 1 thing !

In the last 15 years or so, I have called 2 shows before taking the stage, and 6 or 7 once under way.
Yes, I have gotten flack for it.
Yes, I have been hired by the same folks again.
Electricity and water don't mix. No matter what someone saw on TV last night......

Chris.
 
Re: When to call it?

Stumbled across this news story:
http://www.eaglecountryonline.com/news.php?nID=2181

A quick excerpt:

It appears the stage was never inspected. Homeland Security officials said Monday no permit was needed for the structure.

"There is no permitting process," IDHS spokesperson John Erickson told the Indianapolis Star. "There is no regulation on it. We do not regulate putting up of scaffolding in a business or an entertainment setting or anything of that type."

Neither Homeland Security nor the Indiana Fire Marshal's office are required to inspect outdoor stages.

WRTV 6 in Indianapolis reports that the City of Indianapolis does require a permit for temporary structures, but their inspectors were not responsible for reviewing structures on the state-owned fairgrounds.

So it looks like a pretty major structure had no oversight or regulation whatsoever. I wonder how many similar events are going on, right now, with structures that are far sketchier, but have never been inspected or had their design scrutinised?
 
Re: When to call it?

Stuart Høgg said:
Stumbled across this news story:
http://www.eaglecountryonline.com/news.php?nID=2181

A quick excerpt:

It appears the stage was never inspected. Homeland Security officials said Monday no permit was needed for the structure.

"There is no permitting process," IDHS spokesperson John Erickson told the Indianapolis Star. "There is no regulation on it. We do not regulate putting up of scaffolding in a business or an entertainment setting or anything of that type."

Neither Homeland Security nor the Indiana Fire Marshal's office are required to inspect outdoor stages.

WRTV 6 in Indianapolis reports that the City of Indianapolis does require a permit for temporary structures, but their inspectors were not responsible for reviewing structures on the state-owned fairgrounds.

So it looks like a pretty major structure had no oversight or regulation whatsoever. I wonder how many similar events are going on, right now, with structures that are far sketchier, but have never been inspected or had their design scrutinised?
Click to expand...

Hello,

In most States, OSHA won't even monitor any of the City, State, or Federal projects (this being State operated)... but as soon as it becomes a Private or Business project...they're there in a minute, especially if there has been violations in the past.

In most of the U.S., there are Local or County Fire Marshalls that will do a walk-through when the word "Stage" is attached to some project, although, they're generally looking for potential fire hazards, some may also inspect for Electrical Code violations

Most larger cities have a Building Inspector or Code Inspector, some areas have County Inspectors because of costs, they'll inspect for proper structural conditions, and some, or all of the safety issues.

Cheers,
Hammer
 
Re: When to call it?

This discussion makes me appreciate all the more the fact that I've been able to build my career so far without having to work any out door festival stages. Frankly, if I was on a call on one of these kinds of stages, and I was watching severe weather roll in (and monitoring on the radar on my phone and listening to the Ham radio bands), I would walk at the first indication that there was going to be the potential for a severe threat. Which means, I guess, I probably wouldn't work in that sector of the industry very long.
 
Re: When to call it?

Justice C. Bigler said:
This discussion makes me appreciate all the more the fact that I've been able to build my career so far without having to work any out door festival stages. Frankly, if I was on a call on one of these kinds of stages, and I was watching severe weather roll in (and monitoring on the radar on my phone and listening to the Ham radio bands), I would walk at the first indication that there was going to be the potential for a severe threat. Which means, I guess, I probably wouldn't work in that sector of the industry very long.
Click to expand...
Which might be the exact problem underneath.
The person/authority that is in charge of calling a show or not should not be involved in the money earning process of that show in any kind.
 
Re: When to call it?

Ryan Lantzy said:
Agree... that's *thee* definition of conflict of interest.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and even with our Master system (for bigger shows a person, depending on the type of the show multiple persons with a master degree have to observe the venue and have the authority to call a show) there are certain degrees of conflict of interest. The master can be employed by muncipal companies or may be working freelance for a staging company he/she has to observe on that certain gig. But it's better than nothing, honestly I'm glad that we have this system now, even when it sucks from time to time and even when it's not perfect in terms of accident prevention (like the very sad Loveparade desaster, where 21 died).

I have 2 thoughts:

1. Industry is not able to regulate itself in an effective way. Too many money connections, making it hard to see only the safety side of our world.
(When I point out safety flaws I am ruining the party, basically. Might cost me gigs. I do so anyway, as many do, because it's important. Unions could help on this side. A union steward should be able to have a word on safety concerns without negative consequences.)
2. State regulation can be applied, has to be watched closely, not to swing too much to either the loose or the tight side. The first means no effective accident prevention, the second means getting nothing done. The German model is maybe worth a look for the USofA.
 
Re: When to call it?

Robert Healey said:
Here's an article with the opinion of a meteorologist:

http://www.weather.com/outlook/weat...s/indianapolis-tragedy-not-a-fluke_2011-08-15
Click to expand...

There's been alot of arm chair quaterbacks saying what they would have done or what should have been done. Now we have one meteroligist giving his opinion.It's an opinion,not fact.I have read the opinion of other meteroligists who believe it was a gustnado.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustnado. Read the current issue of FOH.Front page article about the stage collapse at the Ottawa Bluesfest. After a long investigation,they concluded it was a squall compareable to an F1 tornado packing 85mph winds. Unless you've been the one that has that responsibility,you have no idea what is going on. I have been either part of a team or the one with the responsibility for calling an event. If it's a small event,you're looking at a weather app on your phone.If it's a large event,you may have someone watching a computer and monitoring a radio equipped to recieve NOAA alerts.What I have found is that the weather reports are terribly inacurrate for any particular area.No matter what you do,somebody will be second guessing you.I did a show at a county fair last Saturday where they were calling for 40mph winds,heavey rain and hail.We got the rain but not the winds or hail.The author in the above link states there were warnings about thunderstorms over a period of several days. So maybe they have should have just canceled the whole fair just in case. When the govenor said it was a fluke,he could be right right. There were tents and a ferriswheel at the fair that were not affected at all by the wind that took down the stage.But we won't know untill an investigation is complete.We need to quit speculating untill we know what really happened.
 
Re: When to call it?

Charlie Zureki said:
Hello,

In most States, OSHA won't even monitor any of the City, State, or Federal projects (this being State operated)... but as soon as it becomes a Private or Business project...they're there in a minute, especially if there has been violations in the past.

In most of the U.S., there are Local or County Fire Marshalls that will do a walk-through when the word "Stage" is attached to some project, although, they're generally looking for potential fire hazards, some may also inspect for Electrical Code violations

Most larger cities have a Building Inspector or Code Inspector, some areas have County Inspectors because of costs, they'll inspect for proper structural conditions, and some, or all of the safety issues.

Cheers,
Hammer
Click to expand...
Humm...

Last summer I was put through red-tape hell in my quest to construct a covered path to drive my forklift from one building to another. To get a building permit for the "structure", I had to file an engineering study signing off on a no-rise something or another. Cost was only time and money... plenty of both... resulting in the project timeline falling outside of the seasonal norms for such a project, resulting in approx. $10K worth of concrete that is a complete mess and will cost $20K - $30K to fix right. Anyhoo: The powers to be went over my case with a fine tooth comb (or so it seemed). During the process of compiling the documentation to get the project permitted... the engineering firm opted to include some leaning on precidence... being a recently constructed major county project just up stream a few hundred feet from my project, which (said county project) also required said no-rise certification to be on file. Ahem: To put it bluntly, the county's upstream project's no-rise certificate on file seemed to be extremely shallow in substance (appeared to me to be basically a signature).

I guess there's geese and then there's ganders.
 
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