Winter question for cargo van owners

Rafi Singer

Rafi Singer

Freshman
May 17, 2011
62
0
6
Waltham, MA
www.singerproduction.com
Hey all,

So, my cargo van is also my main vehicle. I know some people will put sandbags over/near the rear axle to get more traction, which lead me to think: what if instead of completely unloading my van, I ratchet strapped my cable trunk so that it rests over the rear axle? Have any of you done anything like this? Is there any reason this would be a bad idea?
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

Rafi Singer said:
Hey all,

So, my cargo van is also my main vehicle. I know some people will put sandbags over/near the rear axle to get more traction, which lead me to think: what if instead of completely unloading my van, I ratchet strapped my cable trunk so that it rests over the rear axle? Have any of you done anything like this? Is there any reason this would be a bad idea?
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Are you worried about not being able to go, or not being able to stop? Extra mass won't help you stop on ice. Sandbags are usually carried because if you do get stuck you can dump some sand under the drive wheels with the hope of getting enough traction to get going again.
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

Do you have REAL winter tyres or all-season? If only all-seasons, get REAL winter tyres - it's worth it!
Milt Hathaway said:
Sandbags are usually carried because if you do get stuck you can dump some sand under the drive wheels with the hope of getting enough traction to get going again.
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right :)~:-)~:smile: ! but do not use FINE sand, use fine grabble if possible 8)~8-)~:cool: !
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

Klaus Zimmermann said:
Do you have REAL winter tyres or all-season? If only all-seasons, get REAL winter tyres - it's worth it!
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Klaus speaks truth. Modern high end all seasons are pretty good, but there is no substitute for real winter tires. Tread depth, rubber temperature (this is the one they don't tell you about in school), micro tread for ice... it's pretty hard to get any vehicle with real winter tires really stuck unless you high center it. If you have the stock (read: cheap) all season tires on that your van came with they're probably solid as rocks below 50 degrees and are offering you substantially worse traction even on asphalt. Put them on snow and ice and you might as well be driving a toboggan. Even if I lived in a place where it never snowed but had temperatures around freezing four months out of the year I would put on winter tires.
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

+1 on real winter tires.

I drove 700km today on conditions ranging from bare asphalt where i started, a light blizzard over a mountain pass and ice with surface water down in the valley where the main road from north to south is. I'm pretty certain my winter tires are worth every $$$ i paid for them including the $150 extra road tax i pay each year because they are studded tires.
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

My mustang cobra has no trouble with the snow here in central MS. :-)

Back when I lived in NE and regularly dealt with snow/ice I found some simple technique could be helpful... I recall one time, trying to get home in a driving blizzard with maybe 6+" of accumulation already. When Betty-housewife with sandbags in the back of her station wagon, and snow tires, stopped at the bottom of a long hill to think about it. I drove around her and the police car stopped at the bottom of the hill with his lights flashing, blocking the other lane. I veered into the empty oncoming traffic lane, to maintain my forward speed and momentum. I topped the hill (just barely) with street tires on my full sized GM sedan, because I used my forward momentum. For all I know Betty housewife and the police are still at the bottom of that long hill... He never caught up to me if he did try. :-) I made it home without incident, but would have never made that hill without a running head start.

Of course driving with speed in the snow can get exciting since you can't easily use brakes to stop, and still be able to steer (pick one or the other). You can practice how to do this most effectively, in an empty snow covered parking lot, but do try to avoid the light poles (hint: intermittently pump the brakes, do not hold them down). The new fangled ABS brakes may pump for you automatically if they detect skidding, so never checked that out. I can attest that ABS brakes improve collision avoidance in the dry... been there, done that.

If I was living in snow country and had to drive in snow storms, snow tires and AWD would be a nice luxury (I never experienced). My current ride would stay parked in any snow, it barely keeps straight in the rain.

JR

PS: To the OP's question, adding weight will make a linear increase in traction but only proportional to the weight increase vs, weight unloaded, so some low X percent improvement. There will also be a subtle slight increase in rolling resistance, mostly an issue in soft unpacked snow. So the increased rolling resistance somewhat detracts from the traction improvement. OTOH specialized winter tires can dramatically increase the coefficient of friction (mu?) from high X percent to a few times, the normal traction.
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

As Helge said, there is no substitute for studs, but only on ice. Studs are illegal in most countries in Europe, might be so in some or all US states as well.
Modern (nordic) winter tires, if you only use them in the winter and don't destroy them by driving fast on a warm day, can make a big difference, but on a car that suffers from bad traction, even good tires can sometimes let you down. Your typical rear wheel drive cargo van is built to carry load, so an empty van is not going to be particularly well balanced in terms of weight, and 500-1000 lbs. of weight over the axle makes sense if it is secured. It is not going to work magic, but can help to get a fairly normal weight distribution.
My van is a Peugeot with front wheel drive, so in the winter I try to keep it reasonably light in the back. As for 4wd, it makes a difference that you just won't believe if you don't experience it. My father's Subaru could do things I could hardly believe, and my MB 4-matic estate is sooo much better than my MB rwd estate in the winter. It isn't just going up hills, but it is the average speed I can keep so much easier.
About towing in the winter; pack as much as you can in the truck and keep the trailer light. Have a set of chains for the trailer when it gets icy, jack-knifing is no fun at all.
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

Per Søvik said:
As Helge said, there is no substitute for studs, but only on ice. Studs are illegal in most countries in Europe, might be so in some or all US states as well.
Modern (nordic) winter tires, if you only use them in the winter and don't destroy them by driving fast on a warm day, can make a big difference, but on a car that suffers from bad traction, even good tires can sometimes let you down. Your typical rear wheel drive cargo van is built to carry load, so an empty van is not going to be particularly well balanced in terms of weight, and 500-1000 lbs. of weight over the axle makes sense if it is secured. It is not going to work magic, but can help to get a fairly normal weight distribution.
My van is a Peugeot with front wheel drive, so in the winter I try to keep it reasonably light in the back. As for 4wd, it makes a difference that you just won't believe if you don't experience it. My father's Subaru could do things I could hardly believe, and my MB 4-matic estate is sooo much better than my MB rwd estate in the winter. It isn't just going up hills, but it is the average speed I can keep so much easier.
About towing in the winter; pack as much as you can in the truck and keep the trailer light. Have a set of chains for the trailer when it gets icy, jack-knifing is no fun at all.
Click to expand...

And for those with 4WD, remember that it

a) helps you go but doesn't help you stop
and
b) means you can dig yourself into a hole twice as fast
 
After spending 5 winters in Saskatchewan, and now living in Minnesota, snow vehicles need-
-AWD/4WD
-mass
-real snow tires
-decent ground clearance
-low center of gravity
-long wheelbase
-shovel/gravel in the back "just in case"
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

Putting extra ballast behind the rear axle will actually transfer some weight off the front axle and onto the rear, so you get a bit more traction than you might otherwise expect. Back when my daily driver was a cargo van, I would keep a pair of subs in the back during the winter, rather than just leaving it empty. A loaded cable trunk might be even more dense, but more difficult for one person to wrestle in and out of the van. I don't think the cold had any detrimental effect on the speakers. They would have just been in an unheated storage unit anyway.

I'll put in another vote for good tires though. And not all OEM tires are crap either! My last two Chev vans came with Michelin LTX 10-ply M+S tires, and although they are expensive, I think they're worth every cent. I did replace one set with something cheaper, but was not happy. I ran the LTXs all year around, and they weren't overly noisy. The 10-ply rating is important too, IMHO. You're going to load that thing up with a lot of gear from time to time, and you don't want the tires to be overly stressed. If the van is not already a 1-ton, you might also want to talk to a spring shop about adding another leaf to the rear axle.

GTD
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

I have an E350 diesel regular cargo van, and with 3000LB in the back I haven't had any issue driving in a blizzard. Once unloaded (at the show), I couldn't move.

I also have an E350 box truck, and I don't anticipate having any issue with that either with 7000LB in the back. Think: the state plow trucks are all 2wd with a load of sand in the back.

My cargo van runs Michelin LTX M/S and they are the best tires I've had. The box truck will get them once it needs tires.
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

I couldn't believe how the really expensive commercial tires I had put on my van in california were absolutely useless up here in the tundra (North Dakota&Montana) It just sat and spun with no hope of going at all without chains. If there was a locking rear-end I probably could have got it to move (but good-luck steering!) They don't use salt up here and generally don't plow the streets completely bare. The layer of packed snow isn't too bad to drive on, but the moment something is wet, icy or slushy the van is useless. I have a standard sized bundle of 2x4's in there that I had forklifted in and it tends to do much better -but what's the point as all projects and construction tend to shut down until spring anyways.
The biggest problem I see with adding weight is getting it to stop. Even with anti-lock brakes it won't stop if there's even the slightest bit of slip.
The 4x4 pickup I have is really only a 2-wheel drive because either the posi has been burned-out or it never came with one. I've been in situations where one front wheel is spinning and one back wheel is spinning and nothing moves anyways!
Luckily for me the van isn't needed until the spring and we don't have hills.
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

IF I lived up north, I would seriously look at adding a Limited Slip and Snow tires to my cargo van.

A few years back, MD was nailed with 2 blizzards back to back (16" of snow) and my loaded van wouldn't move in the snow; I had newer Yokohama Geolandar H/T-S (G053) Highway/All-Season tires at the time. One rear tire would sit there and spin at any amount of throttle.
 
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Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

Posi-traction rear ends are a double edged sword on slippery roads. When going around curves the rear wheels are more likely to break loose than a simple open differential because the two wheels need to track over different distances so trying to keep them the same, causes a little forward/back slippage which can lead to losing lots of lateral traction.

I don't know how smart the modern electronic traction control has gotten, but it seems they could be very helpful for keeping a vehicle straight on slippery surfaces.

I guess it depends on how you plan to get stuck. Flying off a curve, or never getting out of your parking spot. :-)

JR
 
Re: Winter question for cargo van owners

And just "adding" a posi isn't that easy and not cheap. All the 4x4 and crawler guys have certain brands of axles that you can get lower cost kits and parts for, the cargo van axles aren't generally these -just different enough to be non-standard and cost more.
Sportmobile makes some really cool 4x4 econoline conversions that I see the oil co's using around here. Floor height is way higher but they still look cool.
Sportsmobile Custom Camper Vans - 4WD (4 Wheel Drive, 4x4)
 
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