Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

[Andrew Broughton]

So do the dimmers reduce the volume pre-everything or just pre-fader? i.e. where is this Mute Dimmer function in the signal path exactly?
I would assume pre-everything, but I don't have a CL in front of me, and the manual doesn't say.
Does it affect the direct out as well?

 

[Milt Hathaway]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

The manual doesn't say either, that I can find.

It's just a modification of the regular mute. So yes, it should be pre-everything on the Yamaha consoles.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Confirmed on a QL5, if that's of any help.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Confirmed on a QL5, if that's of any help.

QL and CL are the same except for channels, buses and local I/O counts, so yes, that does help!
It's pre-everything?

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

QL and CL are the same except for channels, buses and local I/O counts, so yes, that does help!
It's pre-everything?

Wasn't pre-insert. But it was pre-fader mix sends.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Ok, that's kinda weird.
I wonder what is pre (normal) mute on the console...

Pre-Eq Inserts? Pre-Eq Sends? Pre-Eq Direct Outs?

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Tell you what - come up with a short list of tests ASAP. As a tech at a Yamaha dealer on a slow day I can easily justify setting up a CL to sort this sort of thing out.

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

OK, so it seems like the mute/dimmer shows up right before the fader, seems to be after the channel delay.

Inserts and direct out can select several different points, but the mute/dimmer is in the block with delay, fader, mute. It does appear like even the console screen display is wrong - local mute and mute groups affect mixes that are "prefader", so the mute is in the signal chain before the fader. But the screen shows the opposite: Delay -> Fader -> On/Off.

But looking at the block diagram in the manual, there's more going on. The diagram shows the On/Off after Fader, but it also shows linked On/Off switches on all the feeds to the mixes and such. Magic of Digital, I guess, since almost nobody would want to put a bunch of extra relays into an analog console.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Tell you what - come up with a short list of tests ASAP. As a tech at a Yamaha dealer on a slow day I can easily justify setting up a CL to sort this sort of thing out.

I'll be able to test this myself in a few weeks when I'm out with the CL, but if you're game...

1. Set a mix to Pre-Eq and turn it up. Send the channel some signal and then mute the channel and see if you get signal at the mix.
2. Set a direct out to Pre-Eq and turn it up. Same test - check for signal when the channel's muted.

Try the actual channel on/off, try a mute group and try the mute dimmer. See what results you get.

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

I'll be able to test this myself in a few weeks when I'm out with the CL, but if you're game...

1. Set a mix to Pre-Eq and turn it up. Send the channel some signal and then mute the channel and see if you get signal at the mix.

Signal muted/dimmed at mix output when channel is muted/group-muted/group-dimmed.

2. Set a direct out to Pre-Eq and turn it up. Same test - check for signal when the channel's muted.

Signal still present at direct output when muted/group-muted/group-dimmed. Only affected by mutes when direct out pickoff point moved to post-fader.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Signal muted/dimmed at mix output when channel is muted/group-muted/group-dimmed.

And you're quite sure the pick-off point is pre-eq (not just pre-fader)?

Signal still present at direct output when muted/group-muted/group-dimmed. Only affected by mutes when direct out pickoff point moved to post-fader.

So it doesn't work the same for direct outs as it does for mixes? This doesn't make sense.

Hopefully Marc is back in the new year and can shed some light on how the Mute and Dimmer function works more specifically.

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Sends to mixes always affected by mute/dim, regardless of pickoff point.

Direct out affected by mute/dim if the post-fader pickoff point is selected.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Sends to mixes always affected by mute/dim, regardless of pickoff point.

Direct out affected by mute/dim if the post-fader pickoff point is selected.

Interesting, and unexpected.

How about channel on/off? Is it the same in that the direct out is only turned off when made post-fader?

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

Interesting, and unexpected.

How about channel on/off? Is it the same in that the direct out is only turned off when made post-fader?

Channel mute (aka on/off) seems to have the exact same effect as a mute group.

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

It really does make sense when you look at the block diagram. All the sends to each mix have their own mute linked to the channel mute.

 

[Andrew Broughton]

Re: Yamaha CL Mute Group Dimmers

I see what you're saying. The On/Off is controlled by the Mute, and the Dimmer is also at the same spot in the circuit, except I assume it has some smarts so that you don't get "double dimming" when the mix is post-fader...

Thanks for checking this out.

I can see some interesting uses for the dimmer function, like where I want to lower a channel's level in everyone's mix temporarily. A poor mans Monitor "DCA" for monitors (like what I hear the Midas has) where all mixes are affected.