Yamaha M.Comp

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harrybrilljr

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Jan 12, 2011
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Central Florida
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MSxsv2Q4S-c/SI-XxmqLqJI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/IPpV9gni0aY/s1600/COmp.gif

I have not used this. Been reading a lot of widely varied posts on it, many negative.

I have 2 scenarios. I use Beta 58A or Beta 87A UHF-R transmitters for Q&A mics. I can get them sounding pretty decent up close or a foot away, but not both. Typically folks will stand there 1.5ft away or so and I just ride the fader. Some people will eat the mic and of course I have to yank it. I have limiters on each channel to help control this, but the tonality changes drastically, as expected. I would like to use "commercial radio station compression" aka multiband comp to clean this up. Looking for any tips. It would not be too hard to look at the charts for frequency response to dial in the crossovers, but there is certainly more to it than that. The comp will be inserted.

The other use would be on a LAV group for de-essing and such. The de-esser on the channel strip seems always to be set too high or too low, missing the annoying frequencies altogether. Also some folks have more CHEST sound compared to others. It would be nice to gain some consistency from human to human by squeezing some of that resonance. The channel strip EQ works well for correcting the chest boundary combing. There is a group inserted graphic for ringing out the mics. I find I use it less and less, but I am not ready to lose it. No EQ fixes these two issues without causing other problems with overall tonality. I prefer the mics to sound very natural.
 
Re: Yamaha M.Comp

As a 5d user I've had results with this as an insert on the "more important" vocal channel. If you figure out how to use it in a controlled fashion, please share.

It's one of those funky compressors where lowering the threshold also adds gain. Since I didn't have time to get it dialed during clubman's one song sound check, I have to wait until set time. Lower threshold, dump gain, repeat for other two bandpasses, rinse, repeat until compressing as desired. I have to be careful because it's difficult to keep track of added gain and I'm usually not that far from pushing the house PA unstable. It works. It just takes a ton of back and forth on the arrow keys and big knob to get it dialed. Thus, if there are more than a few channels on stage my time is better spent mixing.

Likewise, if you figure out how to make the de-esser effect actually do anything, I'm all ears. I get the GR meter bumping, but no audible difference toggling the bypass switch. (Yes, I'm aware that the insert within the channel must be activated.)
 
Re: Yamaha M.Comp

I use this comp all the time for my main/lead vocals. I hate being without it!

It tames boominess when the talent is talking, it tames 2.5-3kHz gak when singing, and it de-esses much more efficiently than the hopeless de-esser in the M7 and LS9.

I usually set it up on either a split FOH-channel or on a bus returning to a channel, if f.inst. there are more than one lead vocal. I also mostly use 2 of them for musical theater work - one for lead vocal bus and one for ensemble/choir bus (in stereo). I don't put them where they'd go in to stage wedges - or at least not the wedges belonging to the same talent. I may sometimes put them in other wedges far away on stage, to even out vocal levels for the others in the band.

My starting point settings are something like:

Threshold: -30 dB on all bands
Output gain: -20 dB on all bands
Ratio: 1:4
Knee: 1
L/M X-over point: 500 Hz
M/H X-over point: 6 kHz
Attack: 2 ms
Release: 70-100 ms

It's true that it's not perfect. The auto gain thing is annoying as heck, but neverless I love the thing. I cannot count the times I have had to start with little or no sound check, and the lead vocals just sound great from the start because of this thing automatically taming whatever needs to be tamed. And after a little tweaking you get a huge lead vocal that is always on top of things, sounding larger than life, never shrill, never boomy, never sticking out, never drowning but always perfectly blending with the music. I often hit 12dB gain reduction or more especially in mid-band.

If others don't like the thing - their loss, for all I care.
 
Cool. Anyone else? I'm going to save all recommended setups in the library and try them all so keep it coming.
The auto gain thing is confusing but it can be managed and it's not changing dynamically. It just changes when you adjust gain or threshold as I understand it.
 
I was taught that a button does what its labelled when you push it. The world of software is not so simple. If bypass is on that means the comp is bypassed, right? Been burned by this before. Controls can be a bit ambiguous. Why not say cmp on and cmp bypass instead of on off.
 
Re: Yamaha M.Comp

harrybrilljr said:
Cool. Anyone else? I'm going to save all recommended setups in the library and try them all so keep it coming.
The auto gain thing is confusing but it can be managed and it's not changing dynamically. It just changes when you adjust gain or threshold as I understand it.
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I recently read someone calling that comp "finickey" which I thought summed it up pretty well.

I have used it a lot, and it can do nice things but I dislike the fact that I don't feel 100% in control of it.

Basically, it can and will do good things to the sound, but the meters on it will look and act somewhat different than the usual Yamaha comps when using it, so it may seem a little confusing.

By the time the GR meters really get going you are waaay into auto gain makeup whatevertheycallit territory and feedback can very much be an issue. I have experienced it to somehow work as a reverse de-esser in the sense that s's have become MORE audible when running the compressor hard! If you move the first crossover point up to 450ish Hz it can really add some "power" or "body" to a female vocalist, but you may get yourself in trouble with feedback.

I did read a formula somewhere (Blue Room???) for calculating the makeup gain. It is a direct function of some of the controls and one could do the math in one's head if one remembers the formula. Perhaps Google will reveal something there.

BTW, the lookup feature, as I understand it, just adds latency to the signal so that the processor has time to react before you hear the signal. I guess that gives faster attack times, but at a cost.

PS: Don't try to play with blending between compressed and uncompressed sound with the little crossfader-knob during a show, latency causes severe comb-filtering. I have no idea why they put that control there as it is absolutely useless...

PPS: It may be my imagination, but I believe that comp to sound somewhat different on different Yamaha mixers. What mixer are you on?
 
Re: Yamaha M.Comp

harrybrilljr said:
I was taught that a button does what its labelled when you push it. The world of software is not so simple. If bypass is on that means the comp is bypassed, right? Been burned by this before. Controls can be a bit ambiguous. Why not say cmp on and cmp bypass instead of on off.
Click to expand...

I know, it's one of "those things". "Bypass on" seems to mean "off" in Yamaha World. I guess one could argue that there is a difference as switching something off would normally stop the signal, whereas bypass allows the signal to pass when the processor in question is disabled. Like when you insert something on a Yamaha desk, but the insert point is off, then the signal stops.

I love how there is a virtual pot with only two settings for some of the on/off features on Yamaha mixers, too. Like "tap delay on" which somehow is labelled "sync on" and has a virtual pot...

At the same time, in the scene recall safe window, there is a "disable" button that you would in typical Yamaha fashion expect to just change color to indicate "on" when you hit it, however THAT one they actually decided to allow to change labelling to "enable" when you press it.

Still, any piece of gear has it's quirks, I guess. I feel very comfortable on my Yamaha mixers and think that are very good products, overall.
 
Re: Yamaha M.Comp

Hi Kristian,
I use the PM5D, M7CL, and LS9, and the Midas Venice (least favorite of the 4 and the one I get stuck with most often). It all depends on the show. The makeup gain doesn't change dynamically so I think I can deal with it. As I understand it, the comp assumes you will need x amount of makeup gain based on a combination of your gain and threshold settings. If you turn the threshold to a lower number the gain will go up. During a live mix, this is dangerous as many have stated. Sometimes we want to compress without the makeup gain at least in the short term. If setting it all up in advance, it should be OK, right? The idea of look ahead compression is exciting. I wish the expander in M. Dynamics had this feature too.

What is SLOPE (never mind - I slope is the slope of the crossover filters) and CEILING for? I can't imagine why this is not all explained in a manual somewhere, but google can't find it.
 
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Re: Yamaha M.Comp

harrybrilljr said:
Hi Kristian,
I use the PM5D, M7CL, and LS9, and the Midas Venice (least favorite of the 4 and the one I get stuck with most often). It all depends on the show. The makeup gain doesn't change dynamically so I think I can deal with it. As I understand it, the comp assumes you will need x amount of makeup gain based on a combination of your gain and threshold settings. If you turn the threshold to a lower number the gain will go up. During a live mix, this is dangerous as many have stated. Sometimes we want to compress without the makeup gain at least in the short term. If setting it all up in advance, it should be OK, right? The idea of look ahead compression is exciting. I wish the expander in M. Dynamics had this feature too.

What is SLOPE (never mind - I slope is the slope of the crossover filters) and CEILING for? I can't imagine why this is not all explained in a manual somewhere, but google can't find it.
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Hi again Harry.

I don't have a link as I have the actual manual here, but check out page 329 of the DM 2000v2 manual :)



This link probably will interest you as it explains a few fairly subtle differences netween the M.band dyna and the M.band comp:

zmarchive.com psw-srf: 59381 M7 Multiband Comp




Also, I stumbelled across this link that may or may not interest you:

Trainers on the road

It indicates that, indeed, the comp may sound different on varying models of mixers.



Please post back when you have found a favourite setting.
 
Sorry I see nothing there to indicate that it's different in different consoles but I don't argue it is or is not the same. Just dont see where it says that. Also funny you posted a link to something I commented on. Like I said been all over google.
 
Re: Yamaha M.Comp

harrybrilljr said:
Sorry I see nothing there to indicate that it's different in different consoles but I don't argue it is or is not the same. Just dont see where it says that. Also funny you posted a link to something I commented on. Like I said been all over google.
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Sometimes the internet isn't so endless after all...

From the site:


"PM1D (V1.6 or later), PM5D, M7CL, LS9, and DM/0 series has a program of multi-band dynamics in EFFECT unit (M.Band Dyna.).

PM5D, M7CL, and LS9 has multi-band compressor program also. This is little simplified version and easier to use. (M.Band Comp)"

You're right, it just highlights the difference between M.band dyna and M.band comp! Out of those 5 I only have the 2 that only have M.dyna, so I guess I focused more on that part.
 
Re: Yamaha M.Comp

harrybrilljr said:
Cool. Anyone else? I'm going to save all recommended setups in the library and try them all so keep it coming.
Click to expand...
No help with that comp, but for the general problem you talk about, "Y" ing two channels and fading between the "Boom" and "Squawk" reducing channel, each with appropriate compression and gain works well and does not require esoteric gear.

More work than a set and forget multiband, but at least you won't fall asleep.
 
Re: Yamaha M.Comp

Art Welter said:
No help with that comp, but for the general problem you talk about, "Y" ing two channels and fading between the "Boom" and "Squawk" reducing channel, each with appropriate compression and gain works well and does not require esoteric gear.

More work than a set and forget multiband, but at least you won't fall asleep.
Click to expand...

Similarly, google "New York compression". It can significantly reduce your GBF, but it can also fix this problem.
 
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