SC48 Post forward from PSW

B

Brian Wynn

Sophomore
Jan 12, 2011
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Chicagoland
www.soundscoolliveaudio.com
Just thought I would share my thoughts on this. I know Evan can probably help.

I'm just not happy with my SC48 I guess because I'm looking for a lot of things the M7 will do that the SC48 doesn't. I felt like I was buying a upgrade from my M7 but after I own the SC48 I feel it was most defiantly a step sideways.
Simple things bug me like:
Ipad or tablet control that doesn't effect the surface and has sends on faders so that you can mix monitors separate. Presonus (& Yamaha) have you beat here with there $1800 mixer. COME ON!!!
Its nearly impossible to change effects parameters without touching the mouse.
How the screen doesn't change when I select a input or output from any of the other tabs in the software.
No parametric EQ on the outputs. This should be a no brainer. Im hoping that this was an accident. I know Plugins right; well who wants to eat up the plugin slots with something that should be factory set.
No Mono fader on the surface.
Make the arrow up & down keys on the keyboard change selected encoder values.
Make a function button turn off the encoder select area above the input channels. I have had several guest engineers change gain or HP thinking they are changing and aux. level.
Ditch the L/R/M fader check boxes. Make the select button on the surface toggle the fader to fly to the selected output and have the option to select linking of any of the three output's. I have tried to delay my subs on the mono output and found that the delay effected L/R as well because of that check box.

I love how this desk sounds over the M7.
I just wish that Avid would release a list and timeframe of things that they are working on for the next update instead of keeping it a secret. I truly believe that this would generate more sales for them because people who are undecided to make the Avid purchase would see what the future holds for there investment. And that way I can decide if Im going to keep this desk or go back to an M7.

Sorry for the Rant but I think it serves a purpose. If anyone has any ideas on workarounds for my complaints please feel free to comment.
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

I have and SC48 and have some frustrations, but would still take it over any of the Yamaha offerings. The sound quality more than makes up for the few gripes I have about the software. To tackle your issues...

-Tablet control - you can use VNC, and control the console. Why does it matter if it effects the surface?
-Mouse use - I do agree that it is slightly annoying how much you are tethered to the mouse on the SC48, but I spend most of my days, whether in the office or mixing, tethered to a mouse. I think that's the reality these days.
-Screen doesn't change - I'm not following you on this one. If you are on the plug in page and select a channel, it takes you to the plug in for that channel. Same for the input tab. I think a lot of people who rely heavily on snapshots would be in trouble if every time they selected a channel it took the monitor to the input screen.
-No output parametrics - The SC48 has 20 more plug ins than the M7, so complaining about having to eat them up for output parametric eq doesn't really work. Also, the channel eq and dynamics on the SC48 sound far better than those on the M7, so even if you only use your 20 plug ins for output parametric eq and effects, I still think you have the M7 beat. I also think that most PA systems these days have input parametric eq available on the system processor. That said, I am looking to get a nice parametric TDM plug in for the instances where there are not parametrics available. I would gladly trade 8 of the graphics for 8 good parametric eqs.
-Mono fader - I always use the matrices for my outputs, so the left/right is more than sufficient for me. When do you need the mono output fader?
-Arrow keys - yeah, this would be a great feature. I hate trying to change values with the mouse. The arrows on my keyboard do this though. Have you tried that?
-Encoder select - I always leave mine on an unused aux send to avoid situations like you speak of above. If you don't have any unused auxes, then this would be pretty annoying.
-LRM check boxes - again, if you use the matrices as your master outputs, you would not have this issue, correct?
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

Hi Brian,
I really don't relate to your frustration.
Every digital console on the market has things about it that I don't like. Some manufacturers do certain things better than others, but regardless, that is a very subjective issue, and they are all far from perfect.

Jason has addressed most of your notes well.

You clearly were motivated to change away from the M7, so moving back doesn't likely make sense, though I see based on your attempt to sell your SC48 in the marketplace that you think that's the solution... I guess to each his own, but I simply think this is more an issue of unwrapping your brain from the Yamaha way of doing things than it is a problem with the SC48. I personally think the SC48 is vastly superior to the M7 in many applications, particularly on FOH duty. I find the Venue desks extremely intuitive, though I guess some of that may have come from being familiar with other Avid products.

Take a look at the A&H, Digico, and Soundcraft offerings in the SC48's price range. I have a feeling you'll find things about each of those offerings you won't like either.

Maybe it's just a matter of the things that make the Venue desks so compelling to some folks just simply are not priorities for your particular application?

Cheers
Jeff
 
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Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

+1 to everything Jason said. I too use Matrix outputs to drive everything, so the mono fader has never been an issue for me. And really, how often do you really need more than 20 plug ins? I use 18, but I'm also running 48 inputs. The SC48 is superior to the M7 in every aspect.


Evan
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

Brian Wynn said:
Just thought I would share my thoughts on this. I know Evan can probably help.

I'm just not happy with my SC48 I guess because I'm looking for a lot of things the M7 will do that the SC48 doesn't. I felt like I was buying a upgrade from my M7 but after I own the SC48 I feel it was most defiantly a step sideways.
Click to expand...

Maybe this is off topic but I'm going to compare this to an iLive and how I think these are non-issues on that system.

Simple things bug me like:
Ipad or tablet control that doesn't effect the surface and has sends on faders so that you can mix monitors separate. Presonus (& Yamaha) have you beat here with there $1800 mixer. COME ON!!!
Click to expand...

iLive has this, and it doesn't affect the surface configuration or bank settings (it will of course move faders)

Its nearly impossible to change effects parameters without touching the mouse.
Click to expand...

I have never used a mouse with the iLive and I never felt I needed to. The touch screen and rotary knobs make this a breeze.

How the screen doesn't change when I select a input or output from any of the other tabs in the software.
Click to expand...

Not sure about this one, but on the iLive it's selectable whether or not the channel controls and screen follow things like mix selection or PFL/AFL... The channel select buttons always make the touch screen change to the current channel processing. The only execptions is when a utility screen is open... these override everything (things like setup and configuration, saving scenes, etc).

No parametric EQ on the outputs. This should be a no brainer. Im hoping that this was an accident. I know Plugins right; well who wants to eat up the plugin slots with something that should be factory set.
Click to expand...

Every output on the iLive has a graphic and 4 band fully parameteric EQ on the outputs.

No Mono fader on the surface.
Click to expand...

Depending on the Mix configuration you could due Mono, L-R, L-C-R, L-R-Sub, the possibilities are pretty much whatever you want.

Make the arrow up & down keys on the keyboard change selected encoder values.
Click to expand...

Never used a keyboard with the iLive. I belive it supports USB keyboards for text entry, though I've never needed it. Not sure if the arrow keys do anything.

Make a function button turn off the encoder select area above the input channels. I have had several guest engineers change gain or HP thinking they are changing and aux. level.
Click to expand...

Rotary encoders can be set to do Pan, HA Gain, Channel Trip, Sub Level, Aux Level, or nothing.

Ditch the L/R/M fader check boxes. Make the select button on the surface toggle the fader to fly to the selected output and have the option to select linking of any of the three output's. I have tried to delay my subs on the mono output and found that the delay effected L/R as well because of that check box.
Click to expand...

iLive has a feature called channel ganging, you can link things independently (fader position, EQ, delay, processing, etc). Not sure if that does what you need.

I love how this desk sounds over the M7.
I just wish that Avid would release a list and timeframe of things that they are working on for the next update instead of keeping it a secret. I truly believe that this would generate more sales for them because people who are undecided to make the Avid purchase would see what the future holds for there investment. And that way I can decide if Im going to keep this desk or go back to an M7.

Sorry for the Rant but I think it serves a purpose. If anyone has any ideas on workarounds for my complaints please feel free to comment.
Click to expand...
I've never driven an SC48, and only breifly used the Venue Profile. I've used an M7 extensively, and thorougly hate it. The iLive has been one of my favorite consoles to drive.
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

Brian, I will try to address some of your questions that I don't feel have gotten a full answer yet. I also will second using the matrix to drive every output. Much easier to tweak different sections of the rig.

Brian Wynn said:
Ipad or tablet control that doesn't effect the surface and has sends on faders so that you can mix monitors separate. Presonus (& Yamaha) have you beat here with there $1800 mixer. COME ON!!!
Click to expand...
Are you attempting to have another engineer run monitors via tablet while you mix FOH on the same console? That is the only reason I would think this matters.

Its nearly impossible to change effects parameters without touching the mouse.
Click to expand...
If you hit the Insert Mode button to the right of the output encoders, it will map plugin controls to those encoders. If there are more than 8 controls to a plugin, you use the next and previous page buttons right above the Insert Mode button. Very useful for things like dynamics or simple eq's, slightly less useful for complicated plugins like reverbs. It will, however, remember the page you were on, so if you come back to that reverb to control decay time, it is still on that page.

How the screen doesn't change when I select a input or output from any of the other tabs in the software.
Click to expand...

What you are referring to is what I believe can be changed in the options tab. I believe it is under the interactions sub-tab. Something like screen follows input/output selection or something like that.

Make the arrow up & down keys on the keyboard change selected encoder values.
Click to expand...

If this is because you are having trouble getting an encoder value to what you want, you can hold the Fine button (it's on the left hand side of board next to the bank buttons) while you move the encoder. It will slow down the movement. You can also tap it twice quickly to lock it into Fine mode.

What has really helped me with console is forcing myself not to use the mouse. You can pretty much get to everything you need during a show without touching the mouse. Unless I am digging through the options tab or saving/loading shows, the mouse sits unused.
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

People seem to really like the Ilive, but I am skeptical until I get my hands on one. I am lumping it in with Danley, Fulcrum, and APB. All are on my list of things to try, based on the reviews of people I don't know and have never heard mix.

I often wonder when people talk about these products if their reference point is an H3000 through Milo/K1/J, or an LS9 through VRX.

That sounds snobby. I can't think of a justification. I'm guess I'm snobby.
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

Jason Raboin said:
I started using eq3 on my inputs and have grown very fond of it. High and low passing acoustic instrument inputs at 6 or 12 db per octave is such a luxury. As a result, I am up to 19. And I only run 14 channels.
Click to expand...

FWIW- You can still HPF/LPF on the channels without the EQ plug ins. The plug in just makes it more definable.

Oh, and another thing regarding the mouse. 99% of the operations on the desk do not require the mouse. Everything that is on the screen is easily accessible on the console surface. I hardly use the mouse during my shows.



Evan
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

So it looks like I'm going to stick with the SC48 and hope for the upgrades that are important to me. By the way someone asked why I wanted a IPAD app. I would like that function so that I could mix monitors from the IPAD with a sends on faders function.

Just a FYI I have experienced a strange output delay issue with my SC48. I want to know if anyone has seen this before? I have posted 3 videos to Youtube so check them out and tell me what you think.

Video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRRFy7COeq0

Video 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPkwBkcjW5c&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Video 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgxEvoRIW7s&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

Brian Wynn said:
So it looks like I'm going to stick with the SC48 and hope for the upgrades that are important to me. By the way someone asked why I wanted a IPAD app. I would like that function so that I could mix monitors from the IPAD with a sends on faders function.

Just a FYI I have experienced a strange output delay issue with my SC48. I want to know if anyone has seen this before? I have posted 3 videos to Youtube so check them out and tell me what you think.

Video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRRFy7COeq0

Video 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPkwBkcjW5c&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Video 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgxEvoRIW7s&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Click to expand...




Brian, re mixing monitors from the tablet, I think you will find that the tablet is useful for soundcheck (get out onstage to get a better idea of what's happening), but not particularly great for working quickly to build multiple monitor mixes in any sort of tight timeline situation. While I have used a tablet with the SC48 for monitors in festival situations, the tablet was never the primary device. Even if they came out with an app similar to StageMix, I'd be hesitant to use the tablet exclusively.

Re the output delay on the console, I never encountered a scenario where I needed to use the output delay on the L/R and Mono bus, it is always done in the drive gear. I'd suggest that you start a support case with Avid. I've always had great support from them.
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

There is too much talk around on the brands you've listed for them to be dismissed or downplayed.

Look at the history of APB - where did those guys come from ? And Danley - just read up on the guy.

There are pockets in the world where some brands are better known than others; I know A&H's iLive is having to prove itself harder in the states than Europe.

Down here (Oz) we've got some HK audio systems around; seem to be bigger in europe than here but that doesn't mean it's a bad product either; Just a different market.

Post history from here and PSW reveals a lot about where people come from. I feel that I know a lot of people here and their competance level just from their posts. Opinions from those guys (and a few girls too) I trust. If you read enough you'll find out what speakers, consoles and artists or levels they work at.


My .02

Andrew
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

Jason Raboin said:
People seem to really like the Ilive, but I am skeptical until I get my hands on one. I am lumping it in with Danley, Fulcrum, and APB. All are on my list of things to try, based on the reviews of people I don't know and have never heard mix.

I often wonder when people talk about these products if their reference point is an H3000 through Milo/K1/J, or an LS9 through VRX.
.
Click to expand...

Why would that matter?. I've heard some really crappy mixes through an H3000 and some really good one through an LS9
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

Kemper Watson said:
Why would that matter?. I've heard some really crappy mixes through an H3000 and some really good one through an LS9
Click to expand...

I have mixed some crappy mixes through an H3000 and some really good ones through an LS9. We all have bad days and get lucky sometimes. The point is I have mixed on both, and most everything in between.

So if an engineer says that something sounds "amazing" but their reference point is prosumer equipment, that is not my reference point. It could be great value for money, and an improvement over the things they have used before, but that does not mean I want to start including it on my riders.

I read a thread not long ago, and not on this forum, where someone said the JBL 712M was the BEST monitor out there. Not the best under a certain price point, or best they had ever used, but the best. Now this person, I would hope and assume, has never used a D&B or L'acoustics wedge. This doesn't make him a bad engineer, or even inexperienced, but one who has a narrow frame of reference.

So when there is a glowing review of the Fulcrum DX1295, I have to wonder where it would stand against a Nexo PS15, D&B Q7, Meyer CQ1, etc. I hope it can hold it's own, as it's a small, local (to me) company, and I like the philosophy. I also know that the reviewer is an experienced engineer. So I'm crossing my fingers and hoping to hear it at the Expo in a couple of weeks.

Sorry for the topic swerve.
 
Re: SC48 Post forward from PSW

Jason Raboin said:
...

So when there is a glowing review of the Fulcrum DX1295, I have to wonder where it would stand against a Nexo PS15, D&B Q7, Meyer CQ1, etc. I hope it can hold it's own, as it's a small, local (to me) company, and I like the philosophy. I also know that the reviewer is an experienced engineer. So I'm crossing my fingers and hoping to hear it at the Expo in a couple of weeks.

Sorry for the topic swerve.
Click to expand...

You will, without a doubt, be floored by the Fulcrum boxes. I now own 6, with more to come!

I just rented 4 to a church for a weekend, and when picking up the rental, I was told that the pastors (not the sound people, but the non-technical pastors!) loved them so much that they want to buy them to stay permanently!

Also, my apologies for continuing the topic swerve.
 
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