Unbelievable!

Silas Pradetto

Graduate Student
Let's consider the Audiopile C006 trunk with the stacking dishes. Now, let's consider the cost of building one of these from scratch using parts from Penn Elcom. Now, consider quantity 6 either way, getting every discount possible.

Guess what? No matter how you spin it, it's still way more money just to buy the parts from Penn than it is to buy them already done from Audiopile. Remember, this is excluding all the time and labor to build them myself.

What's the difference in quality? Well, steel is steel, aluminum is aluminum, and ABS laminated plywood is pretty much ABS laminated plywood. Sure, the assembly quality may suffer a bit on the imported cases, but enough to justify building my own? I really don't think so.

It just sucks that American companies have no chance at competing these days.

edit: I'm not bashing Audiopile at all - nor Penn - I don't mind buying from either, and both have a lot of great people working for them.
 
Re: Unbelievable!

Yes but it's simply economies of scale. Now if the parts place were to make cases, they could probably compete...
 
Re: Unbelievable!

Yep it sux for sure, and Silas it is not restricted to the USA. It is the same here in Australia.
I can buy a Rode microphone in the US and ship to Australia and it is cheaper than if i buy here in Australia, and that is assuming i get a reasonable discount here in Aus.

Makes you think for sure.....!
 
Re: Unbelievable!

Yes but it's simply economies of scale. Now if the parts place were to make cases, they could probably compete...
I personally don't believe it's just economies of scale.

NIMBY is seemingly fairly strong and seemingly omni-present here in the US. I suspect there is no such thing as NIMBY in countries with industrial growth. Not to say that being observant of the consequences of long term crapping in your mess kit is bad business and good business is damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead (and just keep crapping in your mess kit) in the name of short term seeming progress & profits and screw the consequences of whatever tomorrow might bring... but:

All the stuff has got to come from somewhere. And: Typically making stuff involves making noise (typically at ungawdly hours... well before noon), and there's activity, and working class people milling about, and dirt & dust, and concrete & railroads rather than ski-slopes, duck ponds, and nature mt. bike trails (with paddle boats and folks lounging about… extreme posing).

I dunno... consumption generally seems to be a much prettier picture than heavy industry.


Maybe it is economy of scale. The US currently seems to be at the top of their game economy of scale wise concerning consumption. Some other countries seem to be doing better at the supply side economy of scale... not that they're right and we're wrong... but... geeze... gimme a break already... small business is not a cornucopia of cash to be plucked at will... endlessly... eventually I'll get tired and give up... along with everyone else like myself... and then what? Tax couch surfing?

I’d dearly like to put more folks to work building more of what I sell (that I designed and proved-up)… but: No can do… well… and stay competitive. One example of what I’m up against would be my somewhat recent power service story, or my covered forklift path story, or… it goes on and on.

I suspect its way easier to get building permits to build a golf course in the US than it is to get building permits to build anything that has to do with heavy industry… and there’s no doubt it’s way easier to get public approval of a golf course, or ski resort than it is to get public approval of a nasty ole factory or strip mine (even though the strip mine might be less of an over-all impact to the environment long-term than the ski resort... but then I suspect ski bunnies are quite a bit different than strip mine bunnies). Regardless: If it isn't grown, it's probably gotta be mined... somehow, someway or another.

What to do about it all? I dunno... maybe get a lot smarter? Support your homeboys when they have the right attitude and drive and are fighting the good fight?

Vote? (BTW: Our state govt. recently eliminated primaries in this state... so I guess voting is on the road to being outsourced here... too)

I really don't know what the answer(s) is(are).
 
Re: believable!

The answer as usual is to work hard and work smart. I fear they have bruised the golden goose's neck, and haven't let go yet.

Business is not the bad guy, and not the government's bitch to squeeze dry. The government is supposed to be our bitch.

------
I follow the stock market and noticed an interesting pop in one solar cell company that has been hurting since the European governments ran low on tax revenue and had to cut back on solar energy subsidies. Solar cells are still not a viable business without the rest of us kicking in tax dollars to tilt the scale in their favor. Well the stock pop was because...
The U.S. Energy Department said it is offering to guarantee about $4.5 billion in loans for First Solar Inc. to finance three renewable energy projects in California that the solar-panel maker is developing.
BTW our budget would probably balance, if those "loans" ever had a prayer of being paid back.
yup, them wonderful green jobs I keep reading about. Reminds me of those plates spinning up on poles... as soon as the government stops spinning the plates, they'll wobble and crash to the ground. I wonder what the resale value is on 20 year old solar cells.

Vote early and often ...

JR

PS: Did anybody notice that IL has two ex-govenors in prison at the same time. :)
 
Re: Unbelievable!

Let's consider the Audiopile C006 trunk with the stacking dishes. Now, let's consider the cost of building one of these from scratch using parts from Penn Elcom. Now, consider quantity 6 either way, getting every discount possible.

Guess what? No matter how you spin it, it's still way more money just to buy the parts from Penn than it is to buy them already done from Audiopile. Remember, this is excluding all the time and labor to build them myself.

What's the difference in quality? Well, steel is steel, aluminum is aluminum, and ABS laminated plywood is pretty much ABS laminated plywood. Sure, the assembly quality may suffer a bit on the imported cases, but enough to justify building my own? I really don't think so.

It just sucks that American companies have no chance at competing these days.

edit: I'm not bashing Audiopile at all - nor Penn - I don't mind buying from either, and both have a lot of great people working for them.

I think you are wrong that American companies can't compete. And Mark, I realize you are reading so please don't miscontrue any of what I say as bashing either. I really do love the products you offer the market.

That said, I own somewhere between 15 and 25 different Audiopile EWI products. Mostly cases and snakes, because those are their biggest value products IMHO. Or at least, those products fill the biggest hole in the market. Over the years I've noticed some variances in quality, but then I was one of the first to buy their amp racks I think when they were first offered. So those ones are missing some small but useful features that later versions have. No big deal, everything is a learning process.

However, there are other issues that have developed over ~6 years of use. We by no means baby our racks and trunks, but the band does about 30-40 shows a year so the use isn't extreme. However, the truck they ride in has no air springs, a lift gate with a huge lip on it and is left outside in the cold with equipment, and yeah, the roof leaks here and there a smidge. The cases get a a spash of water on them every once in awhile, but equipment has always stayed dry and safe. The issues I've seen: Week wood panels, two have developed small holes from equipment running into them while loading the truck (1 to 1.5" in diameter). Bent castor frames, mainly from hitting bumps. I have no idea what the EWI castors are rated to weight wise, but our two heaviest trunks are probably 400-450 lbs. Those are the only two that have had this issue. Also, nearly every brake on the original set of amp racks has broken, and I've had to dismantle two wheels because of it. The trunk latches have been bent by other equipment hitting them, one of which has come clean off. That said, after six years, they still do a great job, and for the price I really should not complain.

I also have cases built by other companies (Olympic and others I don't know the names of off hand) and there is a pretty big difference in quality. That said, there is a definite difference it price. I've also bought case parts (to do repairs and to build speaker dollies) from TCH and Penn and the quality of those parts is very similar to the Olympic cases I've owned and used.

But for the price, and for what has broken on them I still think the EWI cases are a great value. Like I said, I do not baby my racks, trunks and cases in anyway and they have held up well enough that I would buy them again. I've found some good deals on Guitel castors elsewhere and if I have to replace all the castors after 6 years, so be it. If I have to replace one latch every 6 years (on one case out of 10) so be it. Would I rather not have to do these things? Of course.

The point is, if you want a good value on a case for a light to medium duty operation and don't want to break the bank, Audiopile cases are a good option. If you want a case thats built like a tank, is made from high quality materials, built by american labor to very high standards for use in a heavy or extreme duty operation, I think Olympic is a great option.

My guess is that we'll probably get another 6 years (12 years total) of of the EWI cases we have now. My estimate on the Olympic case... probably 20-25 years total.
 
Re: Unbelievable!

I think you are wrong that American companies can't compete. And Mark, I realize you are reading so please don't miscontrue any of what I say as bashing either. I really do love the products you offer the market.
===clip==
I also have cases built by other companies (Olympic and others I don't know the names of off hand) and there is a pretty big difference in quality. That said, there is a definite difference it price. I've also bought case parts (to do repairs and to build speaker dollies) from TCH and Penn and the quality of those parts is very similar to the Olympic cases I've owned and used.
Please consider this distinction about "quality". We often confuse quality with features. Things like heavier wood panels, heavy duty wheels and hardware, are things I consider features, that separate a value product from a premium product. Quality is whether those cheap or expensive components are properly assembled to plan. Of course at some point components can get so cheap that they don't work, at which point they are no longer a feature issue. I had my share of struggles with over aggressive purchasing agents trying to switch me to even cheaper parts to win some cost saving reward. Some I dismissed out right, some I proved inadequate with production tests. My point is value products can be assembled to high quality despite reduced performance expectations, and expensive products can be poorly built, despite higher expectations. Meeting the expectation is the true measure of quality.
But for the price, and for what has broken on them I still think the EWI cases are a great value. Like I said, I do not baby my racks, trunks and cases in anyway and they have held up well enough that I would buy them again. I've found some good deals on Guitel castors elsewhere and if I have to replace all the castors after 6 years, so be it. If I have to replace one latch every 6 years (on one case out of 10) so be it. Would I rather not have to do these things? Of course.

The point is, if you want a good value on a case for a light to medium duty operation and don't want to break the bank, Audiopile cases are a good option. If you want a case thats built like a tank, is made from high quality materials, built by american labor to very high standards for use in a heavy or extreme duty operation, I think Olympic is a great option.

My guess is that we'll probably get another 6 years (12 years total) of of the EWI cases we have now. My estimate on the Olympic case... probably 20-25 years total.

The bottom line, is ROI... and best use of limited capital. 20-25 years is a very respectable lifetime for a road case (IMO).

===========

The issue about competitiveness of US manufacturing is too complicated to cover in a brief post, but some observations in passing.

** Free trade pacts that would generate $Billions in new US exports (and jobs), that were negotiated by the last administration (like with Columbia-signed 2006 and S. Korea signed 2007), still haven't been approved by congress, over some partisan quid pro quo for approval. In the current economy and job environment, this is inexcusable. It's been years that these have been held up, stopped by those in power for some partisan horse trading.

** I just read in the paper, about something like 80 teachers in GA (IIRC) that admitted to cheating on standardized tests over recent years, to make their students look like they were doing better. I repeat... TEACHERS ADMITTED TO CHEATING. I don't mean to tar them all with broad strokes but this is a sad statement about our education system.

I have met the enemy and he is us...

JR
 
Re: Steel isn't just steel...

What's the difference in quality? Well, steel is steel, aluminum is aluminum, and ABS laminated plywood is pretty much ABS laminated plywood. Sure, the assembly quality may suffer a bit on the imported cases, but enough to justify building my own? I really don't think so.

Given that materials design and forming is my formal education, its fair to say that this collection of statements isn't true. Whether it be the nominal alloy grade, the qc of the batches of said grade, the choice of forming/assembly method, the modeling and/or testing of the product, or the outbound qc.

Metal alloys can have tremendous variance in local concentrations of the added elements that provide the desired metal properties. Each forming method of the alloy, in turn, has different effects on strength, fracture toughness, corrosion, etc. Then the method of plating or galvanizing, etc.

Such things matter little for some common consumer goods, but beyond the least stringent level of engineering they do play a role. Even the consumer goods manufacturers care extensively about things like plastic mold wear, modeling of resin flow in molds, etc.

Note that this has nothing to do with where goods are manufactured, but rather is about the engineering care and/or know-how applied to the item.

The engineering differentiation possible between, say, different toasters at a price consumers are willing to pay seldom warrants the additional R&D overhead for very little performance gain. This is not the case for something like a gas power turbine, pressure vessel, mining truck, or MRI machine.

If, in the case of the toaster, there is little engineering differentiation possible, then generally it is more like that quality of manufacture is not as critical. This opens up the possibility of assembly using less automation, lower skilled workers, etc. This might also enable using more affordable labor outside the first and second world nations.

I am afraid one common logical fallacy is that better paid workers, be it in the US, EU, Brazil, Israel, UAE, Russia, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, Korea, etc. means better quality. Certainly all of us in professional audio have worked with incompetent electricians that earn a good wage, and low-earning stage hands that work much better/harder than the evening's FOH mixer. For the skilled trades, education, practice, networking, and general intelligence are better metrics of success than absolute wage.

Ultimately engineering, design, capital availability, and manufacturing prowess are the tools of differentiation that create enough price elasticity in sufficiently "advanced" products to enable those workers with the correct "soft skills" to earn better wages, in any country context. A country like the US, Japan, Korea, Sweden, France, England, Israel, etc. must inevitably be pressed towards the creation of items whose complexity and subtlety of manufacturing provide meaningful room for competitive improvements and advancements. This is the general reason why "advanced" manufacturing can, and does, still thrive in these countries.

Even a company with a product as mundane as what Penn-Elcom produces still has a reputation for quality and durability within the industries that matter to their business. As long as they retain that competitive differentiation, they will have the price elasticity to make manufacture of their product sustainable in a high wage country.
 
Re: Unbelievable!

** I just read in the paper, about something like 80 teachers in GA (IIRC) that admitted to cheating on standardized tests over recent years, to make their students look like they were doing better. I repeat... TEACHERS ADMITTED TO CHEATING. I don't mean to tar them all with broad strokes but this is a sad statement about our education system.

I have met the enemy and he is us...

JR
It is truly sad. The one that were doing the cheating were rewarded, and the one who would not 'go along" were punished-in the way the way they were treated by staff and such.

What does that really teach the kids. Oh-I forgot-teachers are not used to actually teach-they are just glorified baby sitters.

It makes one want to move to a different area-so as not to be associated with such actions.
 
Re: Unbelievable!

It is truly sad. The one that were doing the cheating were rewarded, and the one who would not 'go along" were punished-in the way the way they were treated by staff and such.

What does that really teach the kids. Oh-I forgot-teachers are not used to actually teach-they are just glorified baby sitters.

It makes one want to move to a different area-so as not to be associated with such actions.

<rant>

Speaking of teachers, does anyone actually learn anything in school anymore? Everything I read, whether it be the newspaper, billboards, the placemat at the local restaurant, forums, etc, it seems no one can even spell anymore, much less formulate a sentence with proper grammar. Even punctuation is falling by the wayside; soon, we will eliminate vowels...

The other day at Walmart I wanted to write a check for $20 over. The cashier whipped out a calculator and proceeded to spend 5 minutes adding 20 to my total...

</rant>
 
Re: Unbelievable!

It is truly sad. The one that were doing the cheating were rewarded, and the one who would not 'go along" were punished-in the way the way they were treated by staff and such.

What does that really teach the kids. Oh-I forgot-teachers are not used to actually teach-they are just glorified baby sitters.

It makes one want to move to a different area-so as not to be associated with such actions.

Keep in mind that the cause of this situation is the silly "No Child Left Behind" policy put in place by the previous adminstration. When school funding and teacher's careers are determined by standardized testing with no regard for local or individual conditions, you are incouraging cheating!
 
Re: Steel isn't just steel...

If, in the case of the toaster, there is little engineering differentiation possible, then generally it is more like that quality of manufacture is not as critical. This opens up the possibility of assembly using less automation, lower skilled workers, etc. This might also enable using more affordable labor outside the first and second world nations.

I haven't seen a toaster last more than a year since I was a very young child. It's especially true with the four slice toasters.
 
Re: Unbelievable!

Please consider this distinction about "quality". We often confuse quality with features. Things like heavier wood panels, heavy duty wheels and hardware, are things I consider features, that separate a value product from a premium product. Quality is whether those cheap or expensive components are properly assembled to plan. Of course at some point components can get so cheap that they don't work, at which point they are no longer a feature issue. I had my share of struggles with over aggressive purchasing agents trying to switch me to even cheaper parts to win some cost saving reward. Some I dismissed out right, some I proved inadequate with production tests. My point is value products can be assembled to high quality despite reduced performance expectations, and expensive products can be poorly built, despite higher expectations. Meeting the expectation is the true measure of quality.


The bottom line, is ROI... and best use of limited capital. 20-25 years is a very respectable lifetime for a road case (IMO).

That's a good point about quality vs. what I would call heavy duty products. I guess I start to consider it a quality issue when the item in question doesn't live up to it's advertised capabilities. There isn't really much claimed about the long term durability of the road cases in question, but we (and therefore the manufacturer should) know what most buyers intend on using them for.

I think there is actually a spec for this. Some cases are listed as ATA100 ATA200 and so on. I think it's a rating for how many times it could take an trip via airline freight until it falls apart.

If an EWI case costing $300 has an ATA100 rating and an Olympic case costing $600 has an ATA200 rating, then I guess there is theoretically no difference in value between the cases. But would you say the EWI case is of lower quality?

Correction: The spec is actually called ATA Spec 300. I don't know what all it entails, ignore my comments on that... The point being, if the case is half as sturdy for half the price, then it's the same value. Is it lower quality?
 
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Re: Unbelievable!

<rant>

Speaking of teachers, does anyone actually learn anything in school anymore? Everything I read, whether it be the newspaper, billboards, the placemat at the local restaurant, forums, etc, it seems no one can even spell anymore, much less formulate a sentence with proper grammar. Even punctuation is falling by the wayside; soon, we will eliminate vowels...

The other day at Walmart I wanted to write a check for $20 over. The cashier whipped out a calculator and proceeded to spend 5 minutes adding 20 to my total...

</rant>

My wife is a 4th grade teacher, so I get a pretty good look at the way things work. I can tell you that the #1 problem is...PARENTS.

She works her fingers to the bone trying to teach these kids, only to watch them go home and sit in front of the TV/game system du jour/smartphone all evening and come back the next day having forgotten most of what happened the day before. Add to that the behavioral issues that result from that sort of hands-off parenting and she's already behind. Compound that with huge class sizes (30+ is common around here) and she ends up being the "glorified babysitter" that everyone talks about.

Actually, I did the math and she could probably make more money babysitting or nannying than teaching, but she has a passion for it...and she's darn good at it. The 10%-ish of students that actually care (and have parents who care) are reward enough for her to keep going. The big perk of being a teacher is the awesome insurance...definitely not the income, especially considering the hours she puts in (60+/week during the year and 20/week throughout summer...plus taking classes to retain her certification).

I remember when I was in school, you could count on maybe 3-4 students in any single classrom being the class-clown sort...the kind that flunked everything, got in trouble, just flat out didn't care. Now, in a class of 30, you've got 3-4 kids that (in fourth grade) can read/write decently and cause you to sit back and say, "That kid actually has a chance at doing something useful with their life someday."