Unbelievable!

Re: Unbelievable!

Keep in mind that the cause of this situation is the silly "No Child Left Behind" policy put in place by the previous adminstration. When school funding and teacher's careers are determined by standardized testing with no regard for local or individual conditions, you are incouraging cheating!

Whoa there... I made the qualification that I didn't want to tarnish all teachers with this report, I just found the irony of teachers cheating too much to pass up.

I believe we've had this discussion before about measuring the actual results of the teachers work effort (like every other job). The students don't get graded on a curve after they graduate(?), or more appropriately are released into real life and start looking for a job... The employer doesn't say, it's OK that you don't know poop, because you grew up in XYZville. Here, I'll pay you a full wage even though you can't do the work.

The students need to be measured on a standardized test, and let the chips fall where they may... I'd rather find out little Johnny is a dumbass in the 5th grade, then after he is in his 20's, still living at home with his parents, and unemployable.

I have more criticism for the education administrata and bureaucracy that is more about selfish self interest, than what's good for the kids. We are spending more and getting less. If standardized testing is the catalyst for change so be it. In what world is cheating ever justified? Teachers are just human, but in that occupation they are surrogate day time parents and role models for good moral behavior, these few failed miserably.

In my lifetime I have seen public education deteriorate from actually having to learn stuff to graduate, to just show up and stay out of trouble to get by. You can criticize "no child left behind" for being a blunt instrument, and crudely executed, but the concept IMO is sound. If we are going through the motions, and teachers accept pay to teach the children, they need to actually be learning something useful.

JR

PS: Nothing personal and I suspect your wife is not the only good teacher out there, but there are more than few bad apples in the barrel.
 
Re: Unbelievable!

That's a good point about quality vs. what I would call heavy duty products. I guess I start to consider it a quality issue when the item in question doesn't live up to it's advertised capabilities. There isn't really much claimed about the long term durability of the road cases in question, but we (and therefore the manufacturer should) know what most buyers intend on using them for.

I think there is actually a spec for this. Some cases are listed as ATA100 ATA200 and so on. I think it's a rating for how many times it could take an trip via airline freight until it falls apart.

If an EWI case costing $300 has an ATA100 rating and an Olympic case costing $600 has an ATA200 rating, then I guess there is theoretically no difference in value between the cases. But would you say the EWI case is of lower quality?

Correction: The spec is actually called ATA Spec 300. I don't know what all it entails, ignore my comments on that... The point being, if the case is half as sturdy for half the price, then it's the same value. Is it lower quality?

NO... IMO Good quality is if an ATA 300 case delivers ATA 300 performance, and a ATA100 case that delivers ATA 100 performance it is still good quality. If either doesn't live up to it's performance expectation, then it is low quality.

Value is a more subjective characteristic that depends on personal situation. A cheap throw away mixer may be a good value for a one off gig mixing sound in the middle of a mud wrestling match, not such a good value for high end corporate gigs. A 25 year, and a 5 year life expectancy road case can both be good values for different customers with different needs.

Note: "Value products" is also code, for low cost, low feature content products. My distinction about quality being relative to design execution is not the generally held view, where many perceive high feature content as equivalent to high quality. I don't share that popular viewpoint.

Think of it like a car company that makes both cheap and expensive cars, Both are built to the same high quality standards often in the same factory, but the more expensive car will have more features and be perceived as higher quality because it is more expensive.

JR
 
Re: Unbelievable!

"In what world is cheating ever justified?"

Cheating is never justified, and I don't think we should have govenment policies that encourage it. And I bet you would agree that standardized testing is not an accurate determination of the quality of the student or the teacher. It is a political solution from a government that's trying to look like it's doing something about the problem. What's the real solution - hell if I know!

By the way, neither me or my wife are teachers, so even though you quoted me, I assume you were responding to someone else?
 
Re: Unbelievable!

"In what world is cheating ever justified?"

Cheating is never justified, and I don't think we should have govenment policies that encourage it.
Agreed, government policies should not encourage cheating, while they routinely encourage fraud by lax administration of everything they touch. People cheat when they believe they won't get caught.

Standardized testing is only problematic for teachers, if their students are performing below standard on these tests. Since the actual tests are authored by the states, that means the student performance must be below standard for the state they are in.

This program is a decade old, so by now they must have some trends to help evaluate the teacher performance vs. the raw material he/she has to work with. No matter how flawed the test, surely it will help separate some wheat from some chaff, and identify problem areas.

This is the work that teachers and administrators are supposed to accomplish.
And I bet you would agree that standardized testing is not an accurate determination of the quality of the student or the teacher.
No, it is, or should be, a measure of how the individual students are progressing in acquiring the life skills they will need to prosper in the current century. Is little Johnny performing above, below, or at his grade level. First you identify the problem(s), then figure out how to correct those specific failures to perform within the system. This is not just to single out bad teachers, it may identify bad teaching plans, bad administration (is that like management?), bad parenting. Whatever, we need better results, and first you must quantify it.
It is a political solution from a government that's trying to look like it's doing something about the problem. What's the real solution - hell if I know!
Actually it is very non government like.. it is business like.. to measure results and then adjust based on those measurements. The government isn't telling them how to teach, it's just saying there needs to be measured results incorporated into the process. it's the teacher's job is to figure out how to teach... I think they can even take classes to learn how to do that.

It's already delegated to the states to make the actual tests... We already know what would happen if we let the teachers make the tests, as those 80 tried to do on the down low.
By the way, neither me or my wife are teachers, so even though you quoted me, I assume you were responding to someone else?

I was responding to your comments, and others. Please excuse my desire to reduce the clutter from multiple posts. This isn't a dialog.

My sense is that this is not political posturing, but prudent application of very basic business practices... You can't manage results without first measuring results. The politics appear to be coming from teachers unions trying to maintain their status quo. I have nothing against teachers unions if they use some of that collective power for the kids, but so far it seems to be mainly about avoiding too much inspection of their own job performance. These test results clearly need to be evaluated at the local and state level and adjustments made based on the results. Some teachers may deserve a raise. This doesn't have to be all stick, there can be carrot too.

A group hug in the teacher's lounge won't get er dun...

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JR
 
Re: Unbelievable!

Chuck.....

That would be "......neither my wife nor I are teachers......"

Sincerely,

DR "son of an English teacher"


Hello Dick,

Actually... "That would be " ....neither my wife nor I are teachers...." maybe in Minnesota....but, in proper speaking America .. wouldn't it be .... neither my wife, nor me (or...myself) are teachers?

Cheers,
Hammer
 
Re: Unbelievable!

Hello,

The U.S. Department of Education should be abolished, and the teaching curriculum should be back in the hands of the individual States. While it was a great idea to form a nation-wide educational department back in the 60s/70s, new forms of communication has made the consolidation irrelevant.

And... it really didn't accomplish the biggest reason for it's Consolidation..... to keep an Education standard throughout the U.S. Higher income neighborhoods have better paid and better educated teachers. Higher income neighborhoods have better parental involvement with their student's educational needs and more involvement with their school boards and teacher's needs. Higher income neighborhoods have higher achievement from their students.

The US school system in many school districts has become a babysitting entity (as someone else had posted). Teachers cannot MAKE students learn....they must be prompted by their parents. Show me a lousy parent...and I'll show you a lousy student.

The whole Educational system is a failure, from pre-school to Graduate school. Public Colleges/Universities used to be public....now, their run like a pre Wall Street Bank failure...immense paychecks for those at the top of their food-chain, whom are not Educators, but, dirty business administrators.

In the year 1900, proficiency in advanced Mathmatics and the Greek or Latin language was a prerequisite in order to attend many of the big Universities.

The Education system has continually dumbed down American students.... next they'll be adding sedatives to the School kid's water..... oh wait, there was a huge increase in ritalin usage in the 1990's

Hammer
 
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Re: Unbelievable!

Hello Dick,

Actually... "That would be " ....neither my wife nor I are teachers...." maybe in Minnesota....but, in proper speaking America .. wouldn't it be .... neither my wife, nor me (or...myself) are teachers?

Cheers,
Hammer

Hammer....

I had it "hammered" into me at a tender age. You simply use a substitution to check proper usage. Try this:

I am a teacher.

Me are (am) (is) a teacher.

Now which seems correct?

Beyond that it is a matter of the agreement of subject and verb. "I" is the subject. "Me" is the object.

I am a teacher. My wife and I are teachers. This was taught to me at an early age.

In the spirit of Andy and the apostrophe police.........

DR

Edit:

John Jakes returned to his home town in Arkansas after a semester at the University. When his family attended church that Sunday, the minister proudly announced his return, speaking glowingly of the community pride felt in his achievements. The preacher said, "Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, today we welcome back a member of our flock who is on the way to great accomplishments. John Jakes, won't you please come up and share with us the fruits of your education?"

John blushed a bit and headed up to join the pastor. As he reached the pulpit the preacher said, " John, please say something to us in algebra." Not wanting to disappoint the preacher, John gamely responded, "Pi r square."

The preacher was astonished.

"John, it appears that they've failed you down in Little Rock. Any fool knows that pie are round, cornbread are square!"
 
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Re: Unbelievable!

Correction: The spec is actually called ATA Spec 300. I don't know what all it entails,
There's quite a bit to all it entails; however, arguably one of the most important is the catagory rating of the case.

There's three classifications (catagories) under the 300 spec relating to "reusable shipping containers" (AKA flight cases), being (in layman's terms):

Catagory 1 rated: Able to withstand a minimum of 100 typical airplane trips.
Catagory 2 rated: Able to withstand a minimum of 10 typical airplane trips.
Catagory 3 rated: Able to withstand a minimum of 1 typical airplane trip.

I guess one way to look at this is: A case that's been certified as ATA compliant (but the catagory isn't advertised) could well be a resuable shipping container that stands a better than not chance of surviving one (1) airline trip.
 
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Re: Unbelievable!

And Mark, I realize you are reading so please don't miscontrue any of what I say
Rest assured... IMO: there's nothing to misconstrue that you've offered. Your assessment was straight forward and based on first hand experience of putting the product to task. Testimonials don't get any better than that (IMO). Can I quote you?