QSC K12 and KSub

Justice C. Bigler

Justice C. Bigler

Senior
Jan 11, 2011
698
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Tulsa, OK
www.justicebigler.com
I've got three portable SOS PA systems, currently Mackie SRM450s over SWA1501 subs. I'd like to put them on our list of things to be replaced for next fiscal year (starting July 2012). I'm thinking about replacing them with QSC K12s over KSubs. The QSC stuff seems to be a little smaller, a littler lighter, and appears to have a lot more power. And they looks better than those shitty Mackie SRM speakers.

Anybody think this would be a bad choice for any reason? Do the K12s sound markedly better than the SRMs?

I should also add that these will be used for smaller music acts in our studio theatres, and for talking head type events in our banquet room. The one thing that concerns me is the narrower pattern of the QSC vs the Mackie SRMs. Our banquet room is pretty wide and the 75 degree pattern of the K12s worry me there.
 
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Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Justice C. Bigler said:
I've got three portable SOS PA systems, currently Mackie SRM450s over SWA1501 subs. I'd like to put them on our list of things to be replaced for next fiscal year (starting July 2012). I'm thinking about replacing them with QSC K12s over KSubs. The QSC stuff seems to be a little smaller, a littler lighter, and appears to have a lot more power. And they looks better than those shitty Mackie SRM speakers.

Anybody think this would be a bad choice for any reason? Do the K12s sound markedly better than the SRMs?

I should also add that these will be used for smaller music acts in our studio theatres, and for talking head type events in our banquet room. The one thing that concerns me is the narrower pattern of the QSC vs the Mackie SRMs. Our banquet room is pretty wide and the 75 degree pattern of the K12s worry me there.
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Personally, I think the K-Sub's shortcoming is that it is too small to sound good. I really don't like the sound of it at all.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

I actually like the slightly wider pattern of the K10, but in general I find a narrower pattern actually easier to place in a variety of rooms. However, with that said, I don't think the pattern of either the K10 or K12 is really as tight as the specs as they maintain surprising clarity even significantly off axis. One of these days i will get around to measuring a polar pattern on them. I also like to use extra tall stands and the downward angle. I originally bought my K10's as monitors, but they have actually seen more FOH/fill use than monitor use.

The couple of times I used the Ksubs I was not overly impressed, but I use my K10's with my HPR181's all the time. I think pairing them with the KW subs would be a good choice and still keep it in the same basic line of speakers. Depending on the act, 1 sub may be all you need to keep up with the tops.

I have encountered a wide range of conditions in the Mackie SRM's. Some have sounded fine, others were downright painful. I am sure that was due to what the boxes had suffered before I got there, not necessarily the box itself. If you are buying today as part of a regular purchase cycle, I would probably go with the QSC again over the Mackie.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Tim,

Since I own K10's and not K12's, my personal experience is probably 1 show with K12's for every 10 shows with K10's, however one local band I am with fairly often uses K12's as mains. I have had the misfortune of having to mix a number of small shows with both from side stage where I could not see the HF horn at all. In each case my educated ears tells me that much of the sparkle goes missing the further off axis you go, however, they seem to retain much of the high mid needed for vocal clarity. As a matter of fact, directly to the side, they sound rather like some boxes that have a disproportionate mid to high ratio (think PV or Mackie plastic boxes) sound directly in front. I have found it easier to calibrate what I was hearing off axis with what was actually happening in most of the room on axis. As a contrast I recently had some serious problems at a show in a tent with Sx300's where the high mid's absolutely broke up as you moved off axis.

Since I tend to use these as small show mains, or as side/center fills, I am not really sure if this attribute of the pattern control is really a positive or a negative. I would like to try to measure some polars, but unfortunately, my laptop has died and is awaiting replacement so I am Smaartless for at least a couple of weeks.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Justice C. Bigler said:
I've got three portable SOS PA systems, currently Mackie SRM450s over SWA1501 subs. I'd like to put them on our list of things to be replaced for next fiscal year (starting July 2012). I'm thinking about replacing them with QSC K12s over KSubs. The QSC stuff seems to be a little smaller, a littler lighter, and appears to have a lot more power. And they looks better than those shitty Mackie SRM speakers.

Anybody think this would be a bad choice for any reason? Do the K12s sound markedly better than the SRMs?

I should also add that these will be used for smaller music acts in our studio theatres, and for talking head type events in our banquet room. The one thing that concerns me is the narrower pattern of the QSC vs the Mackie SRMs. Our banquet room is pretty wide and the 75 degree pattern of the K12s worry me there.
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Justice,

I think you've "known" me long enough to realize that I very rarely comment on gear in the forums. Even then I am only making this post because you've been such a standup guy to the community over the years.

The QSC K series is great for everything (looks, form factor, weight, durability) but sound quality. The box voicing is downright poor. Since you are a theater guy, and therefore likely used to working with Meyer kit, you will almost certainly be very dissapointed in the sound quality.

Would I buy K series for my (theoretical) rental company? In a heartbeat! It is well built product from one of the best brands in the industry, a brand that has always gone above and beyond in terms of support and reliability for me. Would I ever enjoy listening to the K series? Never.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

You may want to look at the KW series instead, or certainly the KW181 sub vs. the K-Sub. I currently have 2 HPR122i's and will be supplementing with that sub, and then figuring out what to buy between the KW122, K12 or K10 to be used for monitor duty when we plplay with our own gear.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Im a big qsc speaker fan. I would think the ksub would be about as good as your mackie but not an upgrade in anything but size. I would step up to the kw for the sub. I personally think the k10 and k12 are great sounding boxes especially considering the cost. After much discussion myself and a partner company have based our whole rental inventory on them and couldnt be happier.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback (lol). I looked briefly at the KW series, and it seemed like they had pretty much the same specs at the K series, but were heavier due to the wooden cabinets. I think the KW Sub probably would be a better sub option. I'll have to call up QSC and see if I can get a demo.

And Phil, yes I'm a theatre guy and yes we have a bunch of Meyer stuff installed and in our rental inventory (actually every theatre except for our large concert hall which has an EAW array is now equipped with Meyer U series boxes, or an M1D array). That being said, these portable systems are not generally used for theatre applications, and more for low end music acts. If these don't sound that hot, what else should I look at in this same price and performance range? (Stocking Meyer UPAs or UPJs for our portable system is unrealistic, I think)

Our current Mackie SRM set up has been in place for 10 or 11 years now, and will be pushing past 12 by the time these get replaced. So, they are past our internal 10 year replacement cycle already, and I don't want to replace with Mackie.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

It should be very easy for you to audition the K12s and decide for yourself on the sound quality. They aren't my favorite sounding cabinet, but far from the worst, and the combination of price, weight and features is very appealing.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Mike Pyle said:
It should be very easy for you to audition the K12s and decide for yourself on the sound quality. They aren't my favorite sounding cabinet, but far from the worst, and the combination of price, weight and features is very appealing.
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Boy is that an on the mark summation.If you are looking to step it up a notch, I just spent a weekend listening to a newish EAW box with 2 10's one of which was a coax with focusing, that was impressive.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Sorry Phil, it was described to me as a prototype and wasn't labeled. It was possibly the jf2000? But that is described as having a 10 and a coax 8 on the website. The system engineer said he didn't think it was listed on the website yet.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Hey Justice,

I have a set of KW122 you're welcome to audition on a weekday. I've been using them for about a year now and have been very happy with them as a product. I also have a set of Renkus Heinz PN121, which sound clearer, but are heavier and doesn't get up to LOUD ranges quite so effortlessly. They also a good deal less bass response than the KW on normal mode. That comparison bodes well for the KW as a good value. The RH are almost 3x the price.

I'm not really sure how much the K12 varies from the KW122 in sound, but I know Performance Stage has some in their rental stock. You're welcome to borrow my speakers on any night I'm using them for no charge, however, if that will help you decide what you'd like.

If I had to make the purchase over again I'd look nice and hard at the EV Live X series. I've heard nothing but good reviews and the price is very attractive (so are the boxes for that matter). I haven't heard them yet, so I don't know if that's what I'd do, but it's a consideration I didn't see mentioned.

Nathan
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Nathan, thanks for the heads up. I may take you up on the offer sometime in August when things slow down. Also, I didn't know that Performance Stage Had the K series stuff. I'll have to give Phil a call and see what he has and if he'll let me demo them for a day or two.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Justice C. Bigler said:
And Phil, yes I'm a theatre guy and yes we have a bunch of Meyer stuff installed and in our rental inventory (actually every theatre except for our large concert hall which has an EAW array is now equipped with Meyer U series boxes, or an M1D array). That being said, these portable systems are not generally used for theatre applications, and more for low end music acts. If these don't sound that hot, what else should I look at in this same price and performance range? (Stocking Meyer UPAs or UPJs for our portable system is unrealistic, I think.
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Justice, I am aware of no other product at the k series price point with the combo of looks, build quality, and customer support, I just think that the surprisingly poor voicing and off axis behavior prevents them from being the world beater they could be. Don't be surprised to find you like your mackies better.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Phil Graham said:
Justice, I am aware of no other product at the k series price point with the combo of looks, build quality, and customer support, I just think that the surprisingly poor voicing and off axis behavior prevents them from being the world beater they could be. Don't be surprised to find you like your mackies better.
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Phil,

In reference to the KW series +1 on the looks, quality, and support but I feel your making them out to sound far worse than then actually do. I will agree that the off axis isn't the greatest, and they might not sound as good as my SRX715's but they do sound pretty damn good non the less.

When I was shopping for a new SOS rig in this price range I was looking at the JBLPRX600's, RCF ART300's and 500's, QSC K and KW. I must have beat myself up for a couple months auditioning, using, weighing specs, etc. before I made a purchase. I was always a JBL fanboy and wanted the PRX but was very disappointed with the new series performance and feature set. QSC KW was quickly becoming the clear choice for my application. I ended up purchasing KW122's and KW181's for mains and K10's for monitors.

I feel that the KW122's are worth their weight in gold. I have literally received compliments at every venue how well the rig sounded and looked. On smaller gigs (moderate volume) where there are no subs I can put the 122's in DEEP mode with proper speaker placement and the low end response is quite incredible for a 12" box. When the subs do go out the 122's go in EXT mode and you can squeeze a couple more dB out of them before the limiters kick in. Even at full tilt boogie with the limit lights flashing on the subs and/or tops there is hardily any audible distortion (not that I do this on the regular, i was just curious how hard i could push the rig :twisted: ). The KW rig has also gone out 10-1 over my SRX/VRX rig this summer.
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Ian Coughlin said:
Phil,In reference to the KW series +1 on the looks, quality, and support but I feel your making them out to sound far worse than then actually do. I will agree that the off axis isn't the greatest, and they might not sound as good as my SRX715's but they do sound pretty damn good non the less.
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Ian,

I cannot speak to the KW series, only the plastic k boxes. I've never used the KW. I don't mean for anyone to take umbrage at my opinion, and I am not sure how to reply to the rest of your message in a way that is helpful to the thread. I could trumpet opinions of others whose ears I trust, but ultimately it is a "he said she said" that benefits no one.

I think most of us here have done SOS gigs on gear they thought was lackluster, and SOS have always been more about roi than sound anyways. Almost every pa company I've ever interacted with has SOS and RF as their busiest pieces of inventory.

In Justice's case, he is about to spend his state upgrade allotment on product he hopes will exceed his old mackie(rcf) inventory. I'm merely commenting that he is unlikely to experience an improvement in subjective sound quality at the hands of the k series vs. RCF era SRM450. You'll notice that I in no way discouraged him from the purchase, but want to help him spend the states money wisely. Upgrading working kit with product of equivalent performance may not be the best way for him to spend his sparse dollars.
 
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Re: QSC K12 and KSub

I think the downside to having a K-system as rental stock is: too many switch options.

The sub polarity switches in particular seem to "change by them selves".
 
Re: QSC K12 and KSub

Tim Perry said:
I think the downside to having a K-system as rental stock is: too many switch options.

The sub polarity switches in particular seem to "change by them selves".
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This is a problem, I think, for essentially all small powered speakers. If one of the companies made a control-less model that had the option of buying a plug-in minimixer and/or RF module, that could be an interesting distinguishing element. Pass on the decreased BOM to customers who don't want to pay for the extra knobs and dials.

The converse might be a product that sells more poorly in the prosumer space, which is where I suspect the majority of sales come from. No speaker maker is going to sacrifice thousands of unit sales to bands, little churches, DJ, political orgs, etc. for the sake of the comparatively small pro market.
 
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