System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Maybe I am reading this wrong but it seems like the spec on the 117 for ACV is +-4% between 500Hz and 1K , what does that mean for the rest of the frequency spectrum ?
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

If you're metering live AC, and not just low voltage electronics, you'd be well advised to spend more and get a Cat IV meter; the 117 (which is what's on my bench next to me at the shop) is only Cat III. In normal circumstances, no problem; in case of a surge, a Cat III could potentially cause serious injury or death.

-Andy, who was just lectured about this in Richard Cadena's entertainment electrician class yesterday, so has it fresh on the brain
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

But at least it's not a burn mark ;-)

What can I say, I've run into enough electricians I don't trust on sites to want to know what I'm doing with power myself. My favorite was the guy who sent me a non-dim for a CRT that was 208 instead of 120. He swore he'd checked first, yet somehow, somewhere, a H-N swap happened. Don't remember which end, but it was in the cams! Then there were the guys who I had to explain that the reason their dimmer rack didn't have any fans spinning was because it was a stagepin distro, not a dimmer rack. Can't make this stuff up!

This class is actually a refresh, leading up to taking the ETCP Entertainment Electrician Certification Exam on Friday. Long week of classes and tests!
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Andy Leviss said:
If you're metering live AC, and not just low voltage electronics, you'd be well advised to spend more and get a Cat IV meter; the 117 (which is what's on my bench next to me at the shop) is only Cat III. In normal circumstances, no problem; in case of a surge, a Cat III could potentially cause serious injury or death.
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Are there any Cat IV meters as compact as the 117 with a similar feature set? I use this meter almost exclusively for checking electrical service in buildings and off generators, a surge seems like something I would notice with other tools.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

My all time favorite meter from Fluke is the 87 series. I have had three, and am currently using a 87-V. They're more expensive and a little larger, but they are the most flexible and capable meter that remains practical. If you ever do any work with portable generators the ability to measure AC frequency alone is worth the cost over some of the other lower end meters. The ability to measure capacitance has also come in handy multiple times. Oh, and it's dead nuts accurate. The only thing it doesn't do is data logging, only Min/Max/Avg, which has made me think about buying a 287 a few times but unless you do a ton of intensive troubleshooting it's not a huge loss.

Buy once, cry once.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

The 117 does frequency and capacitance. It also has non contact voltage. I am happy to spend the extra money on something like an 87V, but I do not need any of the electronics test capability and I would love to save the space.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Rob Timmerman said:
Not quite. http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/05/01/015.html has a decent writeup; see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_category

My read on this is that a Category 3 meter is acceptable for virtually all entertainment industry power measurement applications. Use a Category 4 meter if you are working on service entrances or grid ties.
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I was actually just coming back to correct/clarify. Yes, Cat III is good for the load side of life, Cat IV is only necessary for the supply side. That said, anybody using it on live gigs ought to have Cat IV, since I'm sure at some point you're going to need to meter a gennie.

FWIW, the clamp meter in my gig bag is an Ideal, and it's Cat IV. The Ideal on my home office bench, like the Fluke 117 on my shop bench, is only Cat III.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

My opinion is that Cat 4 is unnecessary in this application. If you are going to be metering something that may surge while you're metering it, you're probably passed the point of quick check/ confirming voltage, and need an electrician to be doing the job. I don't believe Bennett should, or would, be doing something that requires any more than a Cat 3 meter. Even on the lugs of a Gen-Set, it's load side of the breaker, so Cat 3 should be fine for that application. Line side of an MDP might be a different story, but someone without a license shouldn't be allowed in there anyway, so again, Cat 3 is sufficient. No need to cloud the fish bowl with crap.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Graham is spot on. A Cat 3 will do just fine. In 30 plus years, many of those as a specialty temporary power electrician, a Cat 3 is just fine. In fact, the gig I'm on now has 35,000 kVa power (that is not a typo, kids) and no one, including the lead or head electricians use a Cat 4 meter.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

To get a little more detail on the matter, I emailed Richard Cadena, and asked if he'd mind sharing some insight into why he recommends Cat IV. He first suggested that the most important thing is to read UL1244 or, if you'd prefer something a little more easily digestable, this article: http://ecmweb.com/ops/electric_need_know_category/

He then says:
A cat 3 meter on a portable generator is fine until there is a lightning strike. Of course, using a cat 4 won't guarantee you won't get hurt, but if it translates to a voltage surge, a cat 4 meter offers better protection than a cat 3.

The idea is that, in the event of a lightning strike, if it occurs far enough away that it's not a direct hit then you're better of with a higher category of meter. And being that a portable genny is typically used outside, the odds are higher.

Here's the other thing: a cat 4 meter doesn't cost much more than a cat 3, so why not err to the safe side? Strictly speaking, according to UL 1244, a cat 4 meter should be used on distribution level equipment, which includes portable gennys. But people tend to go with their experience and until they experience catastrophe they believe what they've been doing is fine. That's why I say that experience doesn't always teach the right lessons.
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So, I'll keep using my Cat IV for gigs, and let y'all make your own choice.

(The question I do have that's awaiting an answer, because I'm unclear on the distinction, is the difference between a Cat III - 1000V and a Cat IV - 600V, since they have the same value of over-voltage protection.)
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

I can't help but laugh whenever someone says "lightning" to justify a statement. It's like the end all, because barely anyone knows anything about how it acts, where it strikes, or what it can really do. Bottom line, lightning will most likely not strike you while you are metering a portable generator. If there is a lightning storm, and you have to meter the genset, I'd advise not doing it, as you are likely to get hit as the generator, and the meter will not save you. Do you know the odds of you deciding to put a volt meter on something in the instant there is a lighting storm? They have to be greater than one in a million. Clouding the fish bowl with crap here gentlemen.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Nice link Andy, thanks. That's excatly the kind of stuff we deal with at the day gig. And nice job on Duck's Echo gear. ;)

I think that explains why at the gig they only use Cat 3 meters. There are only a handful of 600v panels, all of them driving huge automation machinery. The rest is 120/208 vac wye. We rely in four things in terms of electrical safety. OSHA, NEC, UL and Clark County fire and building codes. The UL comes in because of the references in OSHA. For example not being able to plug power strips into power strips or appliances into power strips. Since the construction deaths on the Strip and the deadly fall in the small showroom on property, OSHA has been up our ass harder than a fist in a German porn video.

LX handles all the electricity in the theater, similar to Broadway. Except for audio no one else can even operate a breaker. In quantity of circuits we're the second largest user in the theater, though in terms of consumption we're down the list to rigging, automation and LX. Apparently all of our panels are considered arc flash hazards. To conform to the rule I need eye PPE, hard hat, our nice Bulwark arc flash lab coat, Cat 4 gloves and OSHA approved safety shoes to operate a breaker. The reason I bring this up is that if our guys deem a Cat 3 meter is OK, they have a good reason for allowing it.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Just throwing it out there, I use a Fulke 117 and it has done most everything I have ever needed it to do. The capacitance meter is basically useless, the best thing for that is a bridge of course. But for everything that my 117 can not do, I use a fluke ScopeMeter (don't know the exact model)
 
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Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Bennett Prescott said:
Woof, I don't know that I can even justify $1,300 for a spectrum analyzer. I just don't do that much wireless. I see even the WinRadio receivers are up in the $1,000 price range... this may be a piece of kit I'll have to do without, and rely on local transmitter info to be good enough.
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I have a TTi PSA 1301T out on tour currently. I simply couldn't find 26 carriers everyday without it and Professional Wireless Systems IAS. If you find yourself coordinating more that a few carriers, I would highly recommend first, getting a copy of PWS's IAS and secondly a spectrum analyzer. After using IAS you'll see how useful a spectrum analyzer can be in demanding RF environments, like Chicago (I was lucky to get 25 carriers going yesterday).
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

Jim Roach said:
I have a TTi PSA 1301T out on tour currently. I simply couldn't find 26 carriers everyday without it and Professional Wireless Systems IAS. If you find yourself coordinating more that a few carriers, I would highly recommend first, getting a copy of PWS's IAS and secondly a spectrum analyzer. After using IAS you'll see how useful a spectrum analyzer can be in demanding RF environments, like Chicago (I was lucky to get 25 carriers going yesterday).
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Jim
Don't forget your rigging gear.
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

The only reason I don't want to buy a Cat IV is because the Fluke 87-V (which is what I would get) is bigger and its additional features don't help me any (plus it's missing NCV, which I would like). I think for my purposes the Fluke 117 is perfect, so that's what I'm going to get... I really appreciate getting all the info from you guys, though, so I know not only what compromises I'm making but what to tell others who ask me for meter advice.

Bennett "Good enough for Dave, Good enough for me" Prescott
 
Re: System Tech Toolkit Item Preferences

You know Benny you might want to think about becoming one of those RF guys. You say you don't do a lot now but I see that as one of the growth positions in the industry. Over the last year or so we've been making a good push with training to get everyone up to speed on RF. PWS has been here, Sennheiser, Shure doing education for the techs and government/business side for the managers and accountants. For under a couple grand and a bit of practice it would be another skill set and a way to put some coin in your pocket.
 
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