Living History?

P

Peter Etheredge

Sophomore
Jan 11, 2011
113
1
0
St. Charles, IL
tnprod.com
Was out and about the other day and came across what had to be the most interesting urm, "rig", I've ever seen in use. So with out further a du...


What do we have here?

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Perhaps a closer look is necessary?

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That would explain the forklift sitting nearby....


You can't really see it but there is an actual speakon cable going to it! However it then does break off into some wire-nutted lamp cord running to the various components of this stack.

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Oh front fills! Seriously these are pictures from two weeks ago, not 1970. I promise!

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There were actually a bunch of VotT knockoffs on stands scattered throughout the rest of the park as delays, and oh what's this sending said delays power over miles of lamp cord?

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Again we must look closer....

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Tube amps! 70v tube amps at that! Each of the delays had a little toolbox next to with a transformer in it (one had been left open thankfully so I could tell what the hell was going on with them).


Sadly I didn't get the great fortune to hear this pile of lumber as I wasn't going to pay $15 to get into the fest the next day when they closed off the park for it. I feel bad for the people that did pay that though :(
 
Re: Living History?

It looks like a system that the owner paid off many years ago and is actually MAKING MONEY with it. Unlike a lot of guys in the business who are deep in dept trying to pay off the latest "toys".

It looks like Altec horns and the cabinet with the BOS on it is a dual 15" horn loaded Altec cabinet that was popular in larger venues back in the day.

The power capacity of the cabients 9if using the origional drivers) is not that high-but the fact that they have a high sensitivity makes up for the lack of power capacity. And usually results in a better sound. Because when drivers have to move a lot (due to lower sensitivity) they produce higher distortion than one that is not moving so far.

I don't know about the W cabinet below it. They are pretty large W cabinets. Therefore they should have a lot of gain and possibly (depending onthe design) a decent amount of low freq response.

Regarding the Altec A7 front fills, theuse of the large horn provides pattern control down low, so it is keeping energy off of the stage-unlike most of the "pea shooter" systems of today that simply spray sound everywhere.

I don't recognize the 70V amps, but they appear to have 6550 tubes in them and could be 100 watts each. That would be a solid 100 watts. Depending on the final load in the line-you can run 70V systems long distances-that is why they are a high impedance system (70V is a misunderstood term)

I would not automatically discount the sound of the system. It appears to have good quality (or at least what used to be high quality) components.

Of course we have no idea what actual drivers are in the cabinets-how it is processed and so forth.

If the operator knows what he is doing, it could work pretty well.

There are some systems out there that I would call a "pile of lumber", but this one does not appear to be one of those-assuming it is set up properly.

I ahve heard PLENTY of very modern-expensive-top of the line systems that sound like crap because the guys designing them and setting them up don't understand the basic of sound and simply think that gear is the answer to all the problems.

Give me a knowledgable guy who understands what is going on-with some decent gear (even old) any day over a young punk with all the latest toys who does not have a clue how to use it, align it etc.

There is a lot more to good sound than high tech toys. Yes the "toys" can help-if everything else is done properly and the person using them understands HOW to use them, but the tool itself does not guarantee the outcome.

It's not the arrow-its the Indian!
 
Re: Living History?

Ivan Beaver said:
I would not automatically discount the sound of the system. It appears to have good quality (or at least what used to be high quality) components.

Of course we have no idea what actual drivers are in the cabinets-how it is processed and so forth.

If the operator knows what he is doing, it could work pretty well.

There are some systems out there that I would call a "pile of lumber", but this one does not appear to be one of those-assuming it is set up properly.

I ahve heard PLENTY of very modern-expensive-top of the line systems that sound like crap because the guys designing them and setting them up don't understand the basic of sound and simply think that gear is the answer to all the problems.

Give me a knowledgable guy who understands what is going on-with some decent gear (even old) any day over a young punk with all the latest toys who does not have a clue how to use it, align it etc.

There is a lot more to good sound than high tech toys. Yes the "toys" can help-if everything else is done properly and the person using them understands HOW to use them, but the tool itself does not guarantee the outcome.

It's not the arrow-its the Indian!
Click to expand...

+1

Old designs were based on limited amplifier power, and so tend to be more efficient than modern designs. This in turn often means lower loudspeaker distortion, as the drivers aren't working as hard. If this system was setup properly (and I'll bet that the person running this rig has had a few years to get to know it), I'll bet it sounded pretty good. It's remarkable how good some of the older designs sound with modern processing.
 
Re: Living History?

Ivan Beaver said:
It looks like a system that the owner paid off many years ago and is actually MAKING MONEY with it. Unlike a lot of guys in the business who are deep in dept trying to pay off the latest "toys".

It looks like Altec horns and the cabinet with the BOS on it is a dual 15" horn loaded Altec cabinet that was popular in larger venues back in the day.

The power capacity of the cabients 9if using the origional drivers) is not that high-but the fact that they have a high sensitivity makes up for the lack of power capacity. And usually results in a better sound. Because when drivers have to move a lot (due to lower sensitivity) they produce higher distortion than one that is not moving so far.

I don't know about the W cabinet below it. They are pretty large W cabinets. Therefore they should have a lot of gain and possibly (depending onthe design) a decent amount of low freq response.

Regarding the Altec A7 front fills, theuse of the large horn provides pattern control down low, so it is keeping energy off of the stage-unlike most of the "pea shooter" systems of today that simply spray sound everywhere.

I don't recognize the 70V amps, but they appear to have 6550 tubes in them and could be 100 watts each. That would be a solid 100 watts. Depending on the final load in the line-you can run 70V systems long distances-that is why they are a high impedance system (70V is a misunderstood term)

I would not automatically discount the sound of the system. It appears to have good quality (or at least what used to be high quality) components.

Of course we have no idea what actual drivers are in the cabinets-how it is processed and so forth.

If the operator knows what he is doing, it could work pretty well.

There are some systems out there that I would call a "pile of lumber", but this one does not appear to be one of those-assuming it is set up properly.

I ahve heard PLENTY of very modern-expensive-top of the line systems that sound like crap because the guys designing them and setting them up don't understand the basic of sound and simply think that gear is the answer to all the problems.

Give me a knowledgable guy who understands what is going on-with some decent gear (even old) any day over a young punk with all the latest toys who does not have a clue how to use it, align it etc.

There is a lot more to good sound than high tech toys. Yes the "toys" can help-if everything else is done properly and the person using them understands HOW to use them, but the tool itself does not guarantee the outcome.

It's not the arrow-its the Indian!
Click to expand...

+1 from me, as well, especially since this particular system looks very well cared for.


Anyway, Peter, thanks for taking the photos of some (to me, anyway) cool looking antique gear. That's funny that we have the completely opposite gut reaction to seeing this rig- my first impression upon seeing the horns and bins and power amps with the kind of tubes you only see now in rock bass rigs is: "I bet that PA sounds really pleasing, at least down to 60hz."
 
Re: Living History?

Ivan Beaver said:
It looks like a system that the owner paid off many years ago and is actually MAKING MONEY with it. Unlike a lot of guys in the business who are deep in dept trying to pay off the latest "toys".

It looks like Altec horns and the cabinet with the BOS on it is a dual 15" horn loaded Altec cabinet that was popular in larger venues back in the day.

The power capacity of the cabients 9if using the origional drivers) is not that high-but the fact that they have a high sensitivity makes up for the lack of power capacity. And usually results in a better sound. Because when drivers have to move a lot (due to lower sensitivity) they produce higher distortion than one that is not moving so far.

I don't know about the W cabinet below it. They are pretty large W cabinets. Therefore they should have a lot of gain and possibly (depending onthe design) a decent amount of low freq response.

Regarding the Altec A7 front fills, theuse of the large horn provides pattern control down low, so it is keeping energy off of the stage-unlike most of the "pea shooter" systems of today that simply spray sound everywhere.

I don't recognize the 70V amps, but they appear to have 6550 tubes in them and could be 100 watts each. That would be a solid 100 watts. Depending on the final load in the line-you can run 70V systems long distances-that is why they are a high impedance system (70V is a misunderstood term)

I would not automatically discount the sound of the system. It appears to have good quality (or at least what used to be high quality) components.

Of course we have no idea what actual drivers are in the cabinets-how it is processed and so forth.

If the operator knows what he is doing, it could work pretty well.

There are some systems out there that I would call a "pile of lumber", but this one does not appear to be one of those-assuming it is set up properly.

I ahve heard PLENTY of very modern-expensive-top of the line systems that sound like crap because the guys designing them and setting them up don't understand the basic of sound and simply think that gear is the answer to all the problems.

Give me a knowledgable guy who understands what is going on-with some decent gear (even old) any day over a young punk with all the latest toys who does not have a clue how to use it, align it etc.

There is a lot more to good sound than high tech toys. Yes the "toys" can help-if everything else is done properly and the person using them understands HOW to use them, but the tool itself does not guarantee the outcome.

It's not the arrow-its the Indian!
Click to expand...



+++111

I am going to say the W cabinet is an RCA.

Just a couple weeks ago I used a pair of Altec 203B horns ( like the ones on top of the big stack) for a general paging system at community event in a city park. I ran them up on a scissors lift, coverage was great. On the horns I have the big Selenium phenolic diaphragm drivers, I did have to use a 1.5 to 2 inch adapter backwards to bolt up the driver to the horns. Since there's no real top end to speak of from the driver the backwards adapters work OK. I also did a small stage system there as well.
 
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Re: Living History?

My first thought was not about the sound quality, but rather that the FOH stack looks like an accident waiting to happen. Sure the stack is strapped together, but that big pile up on that little scaffolding wouldn't need much wind to knock it over. On closer inspection, I noticed there are some kind of anchor bolts going into the plaza, but it still looks like it needs another tie point or two.
 
Re: Living History?

Winston Gamble said:
My first thought was not about the sound quality, but rather that the FOH stack looks like an accident waiting to happen. Sure the stack is strapped together, but that big pile up on that little scaffolding wouldn't need much wind to knock it over. On closer inspection, I noticed there are some kind of anchor bolts going into the plaza, but it still looks like it needs another tie point or two.
Click to expand...

Where the water ballast?

Was the first thing that I thought about; then the next was what the heck is that thing up there.
 
Re: Living History?

Ivan Beaver said:
It looks like a system that the owner paid off many years ago and is actually MAKING MONEY with it. Unlike a lot of guys in the business who are deep in dept trying to pay off the latest "toys".

It looks like Altec horns and the cabinet with the BOS on it is a dual 15" horn loaded Altec cabinet that was popular in larger venues back in the day.

The power capacity of the cabients 9if using the origional drivers) is not that high-but the fact that they have a high sensitivity makes up for the lack of power capacity. And usually results in a better sound. Because when drivers have to move a lot (due to lower sensitivity) they produce higher distortion than one that is not moving so far.

I don't know about the W cabinet below it. They are pretty large W cabinets. Therefore they should have a lot of gain and possibly (depending onthe design) a decent amount of low freq response.

Regarding the Altec A7 front fills, theuse of the large horn provides pattern control down low, so it is keeping energy off of the stage-unlike most of the "pea shooter" systems of today that simply spray sound everywhere.

I don't recognize the 70V amps, but they appear to have 6550 tubes in them and could be 100 watts each. That would be a solid 100 watts. Depending on the final load in the line-you can run 70V systems long distances-that is why they are a high impedance system (70V is a misunderstood term)

I would not automatically discount the sound of the system. It appears to have good quality (or at least what used to be high quality) components.

Of course we have no idea what actual drivers are in the cabinets-how it is processed and so forth.

If the operator knows what he is doing, it could work pretty well.

There are some systems out there that I would call a "pile of lumber", but this one does not appear to be one of those-assuming it is set up properly.

I ahve heard PLENTY of very modern-expensive-top of the line systems that sound like crap because the guys designing them and setting them up don't understand the basic of sound and simply think that gear is the answer to all the problems.

Give me a knowledgable guy who understands what is going on-with some decent gear (even old) any day over a young punk with all the latest toys who does not have a clue how to use it, align it etc.

There is a lot more to good sound than high tech toys. Yes the "toys" can help-if everything else is done properly and the person using them understands HOW to use them, but the tool itself does not guarantee the outcome.

It's not the arrow-its the Indian!
Click to expand...

Ivan, Stated very well indeed! If I was the OP, I would have paid the price just to hear it and “see” it in operation. You just never know.
 
Re: Living History?

Jon R Smith said:
Ivan, Stated very well indeed! If I was the OP, I would have paid the price just to hear it and “see” it in operation. You just never know.
Click to expand...
The one thing I want to do when they invent the time machine is to go back to some of the classic festivals and some of my early gigs.

Just to see what they really sounded like.

This would have been a good opportunity to hear what some of the old "classic" gear actually sounded like.

I am collecting a couple of the classic "line source" speaker systems and amps. Shure vocal master-Kustom columns etc. When I get caught up I will fire them up and measure and listen to them to see what they really sounded like-or lat least as they do all these many years later.

I think I might be surprised.
 
Re: Living History?

Silas Pradetto said:
Ivan, no matter how good that rig could have sounded, they have ignored the fundamental rule of sound: point the speakers at the people. I'm sure it sounds great about 10 feet above people's heads, but otherwise the whole crowd is significantly off-axis.
Click to expand...
I would not automatically say that. We don't have any photos of the rest of the venue-ie seating area, so we don't know how deep the crowd is.

He did say there were delay stacks further back-so we may be looking at just a small part of the audience.

It could be that the VOT on stage are intended to cover the area in front of the FOH position and the stacks up on the towers to cover further beyond.

Those are large horns and therefore will have pattern control down pretty low-ie keeping the sound where it is supposed to be.

Having the bass cabinets up front would provide bass for the crowd and having them elevated would reduce the bass level for those seated close to them-so you have a more even bass through out the crowd-without killing the people down front.

Since there are chairs set up-I as also assuming that this is not a in your face kicking rock and roll act-but could be wrong.

I would assume that the VOT on stage would provide enough level for the intended area. I didn't see anywhere what the act was or style of music.

Of course there are a lot of assumptions going on here. but I still hold that the system may have been just fine for the intended usage. Hard to say without more details.
 
Re: Living History?

I can't tell what exactly the folded horns are ... could be old Shearer horns. The straight horn cabinet is the old RCA MI-9462 "Ubangi". I remember Allen Sides had a pair of them in his bedroom as monitors.
 
Re: Living History?

I would SO mix on that rig!


It just looks super-tasty to me, but then my last long-term gig used all Altec A2 bass horns (4 15's) and some multicellular horns that were arrayed to cover short, mid, and long throw sections of the house. So 12 horn loaded 15's and 9 HF horns to cover 2500 seats. Total power used? 550 watts/channel for lows and maybe 200-ish for highs. Crossed over at 600 iirc. Sounded great!

This was a left, center, right installation with delay rings for under-balc and mezzanine.
 
Re: Living History?

Jon R Smith said:
Ivan, Stated very well indeed! If I was the OP, I would have paid the price just to hear it and “see” it in operation. You just never know.
Click to expand...

I agree. Peter, it would've been worth the price of admission. I have a pair of old Altec Valencia's as my main man cave speakers, and one thing you notice about them is the way they tend to hold up with stereo imaging at a distance. These are basically a VOTT with the smaller 811 horn in them.

Don't forget, Bill Hanley did Woodstock with a similar rig shown in your pictures, although he had a lot of McIntosh tube amps under the stage in racks.

Best regards,

John
 
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