So I want to know guys. I can't even count how many huge audio companies there are out there on tour with some of the biggest bands in the world. Where did they all start? how do you get a tour like that? We all know getting off the ground is tuff. Any suggestions on getting the gig?
Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
- Thread starter Scott Ciungan
- Start date
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Relationships. The newest PA company in my city has better gear than the older established companies (we only have about 4 or 5 capable of national level acts) but it was the existing relationships that the founders of the company had with people who could hire them that got them the gig.
if you're looking to work for one of these co's, same thing. Get to know your local & regional providers on a first name basis; prove your worth and one day someone will refer a gig to you; experience with the locals & regionas can help land tours - many stories of the guy who filled in who then got taken on tour.
Andrew
Relationships. The newest PA company in my city has better gear than the older established companies (we only have about 4 or 5 capable of national level acts) but it was the existing relationships that the founders of the company had with people who could hire them that got them the gig.
if you're looking to work for one of these co's, same thing. Get to know your local & regional providers on a first name basis; prove your worth and one day someone will refer a gig to you; experience with the locals & regionas can help land tours - many stories of the guy who filled in who then got taken on tour.
Andrew
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
It appears as if you are asking one of three questions. One is how do you get started in the sound business. Another is how do you get a large tour. Another is how do you get in the rental business.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I don't know of any who started with a pile of gear-no experience- and went out on tour with anybody. They all "grew into it". Or already had some ties in the business etc.
You either get started in the business by working with local bands or working for a local sound company.
The only way you are going to get a tour is lots of experience or hooking up with a band and "riding along with them" as they grow.
Everybodies story is different.
I used to build all my own gear-because I had no money. So I started jamming with some guys (as a guitar player) and quickly realized that they were much better than me, but had no idea on PA gear. So I went to the other end of the snake to mix them. After a while we disagreed and since I owned all the gear (except a Sm58 and a broken mic stand) I started renting out my gear by placing ads in local free papers and posting ads on bulliton boards in music stores and so forth.
I never did an actual tours, but did a lot of regional stuff and "short runs".
Experience and trust is what will get you the most work. If the artist/promoter does not have faith in you, then you probalby won't get the gig.
It is one thing to work for a company and quite a different animal to own the company and have to wear all the hats. Different sets of responsibilities.
As I got more money-I got more gear (the endless cycle)
First you don't get a tour as a start-not sure if that is what you are asking.
It appears as if you are asking one of three questions. One is how do you get started in the sound business. Another is how do you get a large tour. Another is how do you get in the rental business.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I don't know of any who started with a pile of gear-no experience- and went out on tour with anybody. They all "grew into it". Or already had some ties in the business etc.
You either get started in the business by working with local bands or working for a local sound company.
The only way you are going to get a tour is lots of experience or hooking up with a band and "riding along with them" as they grow.
Everybodies story is different.
I used to build all my own gear-because I had no money. So I started jamming with some guys (as a guitar player) and quickly realized that they were much better than me, but had no idea on PA gear. So I went to the other end of the snake to mix them. After a while we disagreed and since I owned all the gear (except a Sm58 and a broken mic stand) I started renting out my gear by placing ads in local free papers and posting ads on bulliton boards in music stores and so forth.
I never did an actual tours, but did a lot of regional stuff and "short runs".
Experience and trust is what will get you the most work. If the artist/promoter does not have faith in you, then you probalby won't get the gig.
It is one thing to work for a company and quite a different animal to own the company and have to wear all the hats. Different sets of responsibilities.
As I got more money-I got more gear (the endless cycle)
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
+1 on what everybody said. When we were just starting out and we got more money, we bought the gear that Ivan built when he had no money. Then we had no money, but we had a really big and loud PA with 15's and 18's in the bottom cabinets. Then we did some shows with some really loud southern rock bands and got more money. Then we bought more gear and had no money. And so on and so forth.
+1 on what everybody said. When we were just starting out and we got more money, we bought the gear that Ivan built when he had no money. Then we had no money, but we had a really big and loud PA with 15's and 18's in the bottom cabinets. Then we did some shows with some really loud southern rock bands and got more money. Then we bought more gear and had no money. And so on and so forth.
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Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
The real answer is:
You BUY your way in. You start with 3 million dollars (that you either earned from a real industry or inherited) and simply buy an expensive sound system. Like it or not, "doing sound" at a regional/international level is nothing more than simply having excess cash up front. Most likely, every large sound company you can think of had some 'x' factor that you do not. More often than not, the 'x' factor is simply lots of money from somewhere else. Talent is often not required as you can simply buy that too.
All of the major sound companies in northern California who do national/international events do so because their owners were previously independently wealthy from other industries or inheritances. It also helps if your family is friends with many of the owners of venues who book you based solely on your family ties.
In the united states, we love to believe in the "myth of the garage", that is, a person can start a business from their garage and build a massive empire and eventually take over the world. In reality, that never happens. Most people are successful because they were born into it or just happened to be in the right place at the right time through no independent action on their part at all.
So, if you are asking "how can I become a regional sound company that tours with the biggest bands in the industry", you can't. It happens by chance, and chance favors the few. I can provide you a list of all of the major northern California sound companies who went out of business thinking that they could get around this commonly accepted fact.
The real answer is:
You BUY your way in. You start with 3 million dollars (that you either earned from a real industry or inherited) and simply buy an expensive sound system. Like it or not, "doing sound" at a regional/international level is nothing more than simply having excess cash up front. Most likely, every large sound company you can think of had some 'x' factor that you do not. More often than not, the 'x' factor is simply lots of money from somewhere else. Talent is often not required as you can simply buy that too.
All of the major sound companies in northern California who do national/international events do so because their owners were previously independently wealthy from other industries or inheritances. It also helps if your family is friends with many of the owners of venues who book you based solely on your family ties.
In the united states, we love to believe in the "myth of the garage", that is, a person can start a business from their garage and build a massive empire and eventually take over the world. In reality, that never happens. Most people are successful because they were born into it or just happened to be in the right place at the right time through no independent action on their part at all.
So, if you are asking "how can I become a regional sound company that tours with the biggest bands in the industry", you can't. It happens by chance, and chance favors the few. I can provide you a list of all of the major northern California sound companies who went out of business thinking that they could get around this commonly accepted fact.
Wow someone's a bit jaded explain what happened here in SD with daktronics then. Started in a garage now putting massive screens on tour.
Sent from my ADR6300
Sent from my ADR6300
Mark DeArman
Junior
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Yeah... The audio industry shows the opposite of this statement for the most part.
Yeah... The audio industry shows the opposite of this statement for the most part.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Rat Sound too. Dave has written or talked about one of his clients who constantly broke his mics and mic stands. Instead of complaining and ditching the client (like many small PA guys would) he came to a commercial arrangement and had the bands pay for their damage and continued working with them.
Good thing too - I don't think RHCP and Pearl Jam break as many mics and stands now-a-days...
The guys I wrote about previously had an "x" factor of being the only d+b shop in town and rapidly becoming the system of choice. However that didn't get them the gig. The owners had previously worked at the other PA co's doing local/regional stuff and that's how they made their contacts.
So contacts alone doesn't do it; gear alone doesn't do it; all the talent in the world isn't good enough if no-one notices 'cause you're not being hired - there are a number of factors that need to come together. Sometimes this can come off real quick; sometimes takes years or decades.
Rat Sound too. Dave has written or talked about one of his clients who constantly broke his mics and mic stands. Instead of complaining and ditching the client (like many small PA guys would) he came to a commercial arrangement and had the bands pay for their damage and continued working with them.
Good thing too - I don't think RHCP and Pearl Jam break as many mics and stands now-a-days...
The guys I wrote about previously had an "x" factor of being the only d+b shop in town and rapidly becoming the system of choice. However that didn't get them the gig. The owners had previously worked at the other PA co's doing local/regional stuff and that's how they made their contacts.
So contacts alone doesn't do it; gear alone doesn't do it; all the talent in the world isn't good enough if no-one notices 'cause you're not being hired - there are a number of factors that need to come together. Sometimes this can come off real quick; sometimes takes years or decades.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
All the above posts have merit. I believe the single factor that will always be the same with anyone who has success in this business is you have to love it and want it. If you start off with limited funds you have to want it more than you want a new stereo or as you progress a new car or boat or something else that you could have bought with the money you spent on gear. Even the person that has 3 million to spend has to want it more than they want a bigger house or jet or island or anything else that 3 million would buy. The amount of heart and soul you put in will be the biggest determining factor on your success and how far you go no matter what point on the scale you start at. I remember after a show one time looking at thousands of pounds of cabinets and amps and stage and truss and all sorts of things that we now had to break down and load up in the truck at 2:00 in the morning after being there since 8:00 am and thinking "We must all be idiots." Then it hit me...... I work very hard and get paid a little money for the load in and load out but that time in the middle is the "want it" and "love it" for me. I just smiled and grabbed a subwoofer and started rolling it out to the truck. To this day there is always a smile on my face when I roll that first piece of gear off of the truck.
All the above posts have merit. I believe the single factor that will always be the same with anyone who has success in this business is you have to love it and want it. If you start off with limited funds you have to want it more than you want a new stereo or as you progress a new car or boat or something else that you could have bought with the money you spent on gear. Even the person that has 3 million to spend has to want it more than they want a bigger house or jet or island or anything else that 3 million would buy. The amount of heart and soul you put in will be the biggest determining factor on your success and how far you go no matter what point on the scale you start at. I remember after a show one time looking at thousands of pounds of cabinets and amps and stage and truss and all sorts of things that we now had to break down and load up in the truck at 2:00 in the morning after being there since 8:00 am and thinking "We must all be idiots." Then it hit me...... I work very hard and get paid a little money for the load in and load out but that time in the middle is the "want it" and "love it" for me. I just smiled and grabbed a subwoofer and started rolling it out to the truck. To this day there is always a smile on my face when I roll that first piece of gear off of the truck.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Certainly there are those that have in the past and do "buy their way in", starting with a large or substantial nest egg. I can think of several over the decades. Some with cash from ill gotten gain, so to speak. These have usually been poorly run bad business models that flashed in the pan. They had bright shiny new gear and dropped market prices to enter. Cash flow usually has caught up and away they went.
Speaking for myself (and others in Northern California that I am aware of) we certainly did not. Our company was started with $1800 and decades of hard work and personal sacrifices. Yes the $1800 was an inheritance, but I hardly think it qualifies as buying your way in. Even back then, it was only enough for a small part of a small system. I believe that purchase 3-used Phase Linear amps (2-400's and 1-700) and 2-EAW single 15" Forsythe bass cabs with Gauss woofers.
The old sound guy joke is "How do you get $2 million dollars in the sound business", answer: "Start with $3 million".
Certainly there are those that have in the past and do "buy their way in", starting with a large or substantial nest egg. I can think of several over the decades. Some with cash from ill gotten gain, so to speak. These have usually been poorly run bad business models that flashed in the pan. They had bright shiny new gear and dropped market prices to enter. Cash flow usually has caught up and away they went.
Speaking for myself (and others in Northern California that I am aware of) we certainly did not. Our company was started with $1800 and decades of hard work and personal sacrifices. Yes the $1800 was an inheritance, but I hardly think it qualifies as buying your way in. Even back then, it was only enough for a small part of a small system. I believe that purchase 3-used Phase Linear amps (2-400's and 1-700) and 2-EAW single 15" Forsythe bass cabs with Gauss woofers.
The old sound guy joke is "How do you get $2 million dollars in the sound business", answer: "Start with $3 million".
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Raul,
No offense intended, but I have never seen your sound company do any international acts that were strictly "a" list. A midsize JBL line array is fine for corporate and smaller shows in Norcal, but not for much else. When I say "smaller", I mean under 10,000 attendees. When you provided the 4888 array and 12 dual 18s for our outdoor show in Yuba City, that was nice, but still not on the national level. There are several companies with midsize line arrays who do lots of shows, but that does not automatically put you on tour with Metallica or Madonna/Prince etc... I can't say anything either, as my system is only 100kw with a DAS aero self powered line array.
Ever notice how when you ask a promoter why a certain company does their events the answer is always: "because X company has always done this event" There are other factors at play besides "service". Saying "have good customer service" is possibly the weakest cop-out I can think of. Most of the time gigs are awarded due to political influence and connections which the up and coming sound company does not have access to. So again, no, you can't just "break into" the sound industry and become the next touring company, the existing touring companies will do everything possible to eliminate you. I have seen first hand how it works.
Raul,
No offense intended, but I have never seen your sound company do any international acts that were strictly "a" list. A midsize JBL line array is fine for corporate and smaller shows in Norcal, but not for much else. When I say "smaller", I mean under 10,000 attendees. When you provided the 4888 array and 12 dual 18s for our outdoor show in Yuba City, that was nice, but still not on the national level. There are several companies with midsize line arrays who do lots of shows, but that does not automatically put you on tour with Metallica or Madonna/Prince etc... I can't say anything either, as my system is only 100kw with a DAS aero self powered line array.
Ever notice how when you ask a promoter why a certain company does their events the answer is always: "because X company has always done this event" There are other factors at play besides "service". Saying "have good customer service" is possibly the weakest cop-out I can think of. Most of the time gigs are awarded due to political influence and connections which the up and coming sound company does not have access to. So again, no, you can't just "break into" the sound industry and become the next touring company, the existing touring companies will do everything possible to eliminate you. I have seen first hand how it works.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
One of the reasons our firm is one that "has always done this event" is because we've worked very closely and very well with that client. It's not politics, it's SERVICE. Now getting in the first time, without undercutting the market or being unduly disparaging of competitors... that's another thing entirely, and the approach needed is as varied as the clients.
Well, yes, sort of. Everyone needs a break (and some folks seem to get more than their share). "Selling" audio services at the arena and stadium level is still very much about relationships, perhaps even more so than at the "B" and "C" national level. Often the best way to this kind of sale is to hire away the top sales person(s) from their existing gig. That's expensive.... it's about renting someone's relationships; if the new employer screws up the gig the salesman's reputation takes a major hit.
I don't think predatory pricing is a good business practice, either for start ups or established players. New companies that come in competing solely on price are justifiably seen as shitting in someone else's back yard, though, and are rightly deserving of Karmic Comeuppance... Established firms that do it just to squash vulnerable start ups or competitors would do better to channel energy and money into things that made them faster/lighter/cheaper/sexier... and ultimately more profitable. They would do well to remember there is no immunity from Karmic Comeuppance, too.
One of the reasons our firm is one that "has always done this event" is because we've worked very closely and very well with that client. It's not politics, it's SERVICE. Now getting in the first time, without undercutting the market or being unduly disparaging of competitors... that's another thing entirely, and the approach needed is as varied as the clients.
Well, yes, sort of. Everyone needs a break (and some folks seem to get more than their share). "Selling" audio services at the arena and stadium level is still very much about relationships, perhaps even more so than at the "B" and "C" national level. Often the best way to this kind of sale is to hire away the top sales person(s) from their existing gig. That's expensive.... it's about renting someone's relationships; if the new employer screws up the gig the salesman's reputation takes a major hit.
I don't think predatory pricing is a good business practice, either for start ups or established players. New companies that come in competing solely on price are justifiably seen as shitting in someone else's back yard, though, and are rightly deserving of Karmic Comeuppance... Established firms that do it just to squash vulnerable start ups or competitors would do better to channel energy and money into things that made them faster/lighter/cheaper/sexier... and ultimately more profitable. They would do well to remember there is no immunity from Karmic Comeuppance, too.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
The concert pro audio industry is barely 50 years old, and many of the top companies around are less than 30 years old - everybody started somewhere. As Tim M said, clients use contractors who can do the gig well. If that's a hard working smaller company willing to do what it takes to make the gig happen, then so be it.
I have two personal friends who started two different sound companies in the last 20 years from scratch and have built their businesses to $million+ inventories and who have more work than they can handle. I've seen more than a few businesses that start with $3 million dollars and end up with $0 because money and "political connections" aren't enough to sustain a company through screwed up gigs. I'm sorry your 100KW DAS aero self powered line array hasn't brought you the level of success you hoped for.
Tim - your troll is showing again.
The concert pro audio industry is barely 50 years old, and many of the top companies around are less than 30 years old - everybody started somewhere. As Tim M said, clients use contractors who can do the gig well. If that's a hard working smaller company willing to do what it takes to make the gig happen, then so be it.
I have two personal friends who started two different sound companies in the last 20 years from scratch and have built their businesses to $million+ inventories and who have more work than they can handle. I've seen more than a few businesses that start with $3 million dollars and end up with $0 because money and "political connections" aren't enough to sustain a company through screwed up gigs. I'm sorry your 100KW DAS aero self powered line array hasn't brought you the level of success you hoped for.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
I would ask that you replace the word "troll" with "truth" when addressing me. The truth is coming out.
I don't believe you at all.. NAME the companies who started with nothing at all and now tour with A list names. The claimed inventory value is irrelevant. Typically, when people claim that they started from "nothing" and built a huge empire, it is because they are concealing something that made their success happen and it is only a matter of time till the 'x' factor that they were concealing is discovered.
Addressing the point Tim McCullogh was making, "price" is not how the big boys eliminate competition. I have seen sound/lighting companies negotiate with unions/city personnel to overcharge for necessary components of a show when another company underbids and gets the gig. Have you ever seen a convention center charge 8,000 for a power distro because some cheap out of town company got the gig and took the commission away from the convention center? Or, have you seen the onsite AV company call the fire marshall to look at some of the electrical equipment owned by the visiting company because some of it (may or may not have been) marginal with the intention of forcing the visiting company to rent equipment from the onsite AV company at a ridiculous markup at the last minute to satisfy the fire marshall, thus wiping out the visiting companies profit? There are many types of games that can be played, not just price.
For your information, I only do sound for my friends and only when they ask, so you could say that my system pretty much sits idle most of the year and I can afford to keep it like that. I have no aspirations to be on a "tour" of any type. Quite literally, I am too expensive for that crap.
I would ask that you replace the word "troll" with "truth" when addressing me. The truth is coming out.
I don't believe you at all.. NAME the companies who started with nothing at all and now tour with A list names. The claimed inventory value is irrelevant. Typically, when people claim that they started from "nothing" and built a huge empire, it is because they are concealing something that made their success happen and it is only a matter of time till the 'x' factor that they were concealing is discovered.
Addressing the point Tim McCullogh was making, "price" is not how the big boys eliminate competition. I have seen sound/lighting companies negotiate with unions/city personnel to overcharge for necessary components of a show when another company underbids and gets the gig. Have you ever seen a convention center charge 8,000 for a power distro because some cheap out of town company got the gig and took the commission away from the convention center? Or, have you seen the onsite AV company call the fire marshall to look at some of the electrical equipment owned by the visiting company because some of it (may or may not have been) marginal with the intention of forcing the visiting company to rent equipment from the onsite AV company at a ridiculous markup at the last minute to satisfy the fire marshall, thus wiping out the visiting companies profit? There are many types of games that can be played, not just price.
For your information, I only do sound for my friends and only when they ask, so you could say that my system pretty much sits idle most of the year and I can afford to keep it like that. I have no aspirations to be on a "tour" of any type. Quite literally, I am too expensive for that crap.
The fact that your experience comes from renting to friends shows your bias towards feeling that no one gets the gigs. There are two sound companies in my area who work at our cc frequently. They don't get charged any more for being there they just are brought in by the client. The huge charges you are talking about are for setup. When we have everything setup and sent a majority of our crew home and you want US to do a massive change. You will be paying the extreme rate.
Sent from my ADR6300
Sent from my ADR6300
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Rat Sound would be another.
Sorry, Didn't see the link..
Rat Sound would be another.
Sorry, Didn't see the link..
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Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
From what I have read online it's not necessarily a correct comparison to put the original big companies like Clair and Showco up against todays newcomers as they developed the technology and the market as they grew. It's kinda like saying "NASA started on the ground". Well, no shit, Sherlock, they were invented to put stuff in space :lol:.
I think there is certain merit to TimD's claim that if you want to swoop in and take a whole regional marked by storm - and end up touring with one of the top 10 mega names in the entertainment business you'll need something nobody else has (like the Clair Bros etc had to offer back when they started). I have a feeling that these two things are cutting edge technology that nobody else have developed in the same fashion, and amazing brains. Both can be aquired for money - a lot of money.
Edit: That said. It would be hard to get investors to put that much cash into something with that uncertain an outcome. They would rather invest in a factory in China or something. So it comes down to the old "one step at the time, with lot's of passion and careful investment - and you'll do just fine. Not spectacular, but you'll do fine and have a lot of fun doing it!".
PS: TimD. Reading your posts I think you have been severely burned by someone running bigger companies than you. Don't let this skew your analasys of the business - just a few states away or right accross the border to another country the marked may look completely different to where you are now.
From what I have read online it's not necessarily a correct comparison to put the original big companies like Clair and Showco up against todays newcomers as they developed the technology and the market as they grew. It's kinda like saying "NASA started on the ground". Well, no shit, Sherlock, they were invented to put stuff in space :lol:.
I think there is certain merit to TimD's claim that if you want to swoop in and take a whole regional marked by storm - and end up touring with one of the top 10 mega names in the entertainment business you'll need something nobody else has (like the Clair Bros etc had to offer back when they started). I have a feeling that these two things are cutting edge technology that nobody else have developed in the same fashion, and amazing brains. Both can be aquired for money - a lot of money.
Edit: That said. It would be hard to get investors to put that much cash into something with that uncertain an outcome. They would rather invest in a factory in China or something. So it comes down to the old "one step at the time, with lot's of passion and careful investment - and you'll do just fine. Not spectacular, but you'll do fine and have a lot of fun doing it!".
PS: TimD. Reading your posts I think you have been severely burned by someone running bigger companies than you. Don't let this skew your analasys of the business - just a few states away or right accross the border to another country the marked may look completely different to where you are now.
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Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Why do the same vendors get all the big gigs? Well to start with there are not that many of them in a position to take on these gigs.
At the level Tim Duffin is referring to the roster of production managers is pretty small and these guys/gals have long standing relationships with vendors they trust to do the job and not cause them grief. That is priceless when you are heading up a large tour.
Another factor is global logistics. You need to know that your vendor can support you where ever you are. That means depth of inventory, great manufacturer relationships and strategic partnerships with vendors on other continents.
That's a lot to overcome if you wanted to take over an international touring account. It happens, but usually it is by companies that grew their business to the point of competing with the established larger companies...Rat, 8th Day, Solotech.
That's my 2 cents anyways.
Why do the same vendors get all the big gigs? Well to start with there are not that many of them in a position to take on these gigs.
At the level Tim Duffin is referring to the roster of production managers is pretty small and these guys/gals have long standing relationships with vendors they trust to do the job and not cause them grief. That is priceless when you are heading up a large tour.
Another factor is global logistics. You need to know that your vendor can support you where ever you are. That means depth of inventory, great manufacturer relationships and strategic partnerships with vendors on other continents.
That's a lot to overcome if you wanted to take over an international touring account. It happens, but usually it is by companies that grew their business to the point of competing with the established larger companies...Rat, 8th Day, Solotech.
That's my 2 cents anyways.