Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
- Thread starter Scott Ciungan
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Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
To quote Shakespeare:
"(it is) a tale: told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing....."
I have since moved on to a real industry. I'm sorry I don't have time to indulge the forum members with tales of minutia related to the sound business. If I was still doing sound, I would probably care more. I did notice, however, that all of the name calling and crying that took place in the other forum which was directed at me actually got me more gigs based me "being that guy" from the forums who "stood up to all those [expletive deleted]."
At my last full time AV gig, I came upon an understanding of the true nature of the tour/high end AV industry. It was simply my intent to share it with people who are not trapped in a self-reinforcing mass delusion that they can rise to the top of the world just by "working hard" or doing some other nonsense found in 'get rich quick' books. The sound business contains a duality that assists in the elucidation of the lives of the people participating in it. Some use it to feel special, some use it to get laid, some use it to fulfill some emotional attachment to the touring culture or to fill a hole in ones otherwise irrelevant life. The sound industry is not and has never been an appurtenance of any economic model from a purely dollars and sense standpoint. This self reinforcing histrionic existence makes it impossible for people doing sound to entirely separate their emotional needs from the business (or should I say obsession) they continue to seek within the sound industry.
nevertheless, good luck displacing Clair Bros by "working hard" 8)~~
To quote Shakespeare:
"(it is) a tale: told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing....."
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Interesting perspective. As a matter of fact there were more than several local national act providers in the So. Cal. area at this time. I know as I built one.
Interesting as well is the fact that some of them are still around today doing well. They all, our company included, had one thing in common. We all started from scratch. Some in garages and some more fortunate in small warehouse spaces. The Big Boys were also here Electrotec, A-1, Shubert, Sound Image. One thing we learned the hard way, and the reason for the success of co's like Rat, was their ability, however crude, to run things as a business. We competed with each other for shows on a weekly basis. Even though IMHO our gear was better, our chops as good, our prices were about the same, we failed to treat it as a business. Bad habits and figuring the ride would never end, insured a reasonably quick demise. All the while the others were developing, reinvesting, and pushing to get to the next level, Which you would say is the touring market. Guess what, a few made it. Once there, they continued the business model that got them there, and eventually end up as a major sound company rivaling the Big Boys so to speak. My point is, I think the environment now is not that much different than then. The same ethics and business sense can propel you to success. The same pitfalls and stupidity can lead to quick failure. The idea that a pile of money will get you touring is pretty misguided. You can hire the best talent out there to drive your gear, but the best don't stick around long without some sense that the company they work for rivals their skillset.
Interesting perspective. As a matter of fact there were more than several local national act providers in the So. Cal. area at this time. I know as I built one.
Interesting as well is the fact that some of them are still around today doing well. They all, our company included, had one thing in common. We all started from scratch. Some in garages and some more fortunate in small warehouse spaces. The Big Boys were also here Electrotec, A-1, Shubert, Sound Image. One thing we learned the hard way, and the reason for the success of co's like Rat, was their ability, however crude, to run things as a business. We competed with each other for shows on a weekly basis. Even though IMHO our gear was better, our chops as good, our prices were about the same, we failed to treat it as a business. Bad habits and figuring the ride would never end, insured a reasonably quick demise. All the while the others were developing, reinvesting, and pushing to get to the next level, Which you would say is the touring market. Guess what, a few made it. Once there, they continued the business model that got them there, and eventually end up as a major sound company rivaling the Big Boys so to speak. My point is, I think the environment now is not that much different than then. The same ethics and business sense can propel you to success. The same pitfalls and stupidity can lead to quick failure. The idea that a pile of money will get you touring is pretty misguided. You can hire the best talent out there to drive your gear, but the best don't stick around long without some sense that the company they work for rivals their skillset.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Dick,
You know I have been waiting for your "Words of Wisdom" and meaningful insight to be added to this post. No disappointments here. Worth the wait.
-Eric
Dick,
You know I have been waiting for your "Words of Wisdom" and meaningful insight to be added to this post. No disappointments here. Worth the wait.
-Eric
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Hello,
Another Duffin rant...? There are plenty of big audio providers that didn't start with big inheritances.... Clearwing, OSA, Arial/Audio Visions, Corporate Communications, Thunder Audio, 8th Day, Showco, MD, etc... These companies started in the garage...all of them.
Every one of these companies will tell you that their success was warranted to hard work, good attitudes, and doing more than what was contracted.
The business of providing Sound systems and personnel is not for everyone. Some people are leaders and some people are followers, and followers don't make it in this business. The leaders, could probably make a living in ANY business.
It speaks volumes that someone would own a JBL line array and only pull it out for friends on occasion....some businessman...?
Hammer
Hello,
Another Duffin rant...? There are plenty of big audio providers that didn't start with big inheritances.... Clearwing, OSA, Arial/Audio Visions, Corporate Communications, Thunder Audio, 8th Day, Showco, MD, etc... These companies started in the garage...all of them.
Every one of these companies will tell you that their success was warranted to hard work, good attitudes, and doing more than what was contracted.
The business of providing Sound systems and personnel is not for everyone. Some people are leaders and some people are followers, and followers don't make it in this business. The leaders, could probably make a living in ANY business.
It speaks volumes that someone would own a JBL line array and only pull it out for friends on occasion....some businessman...?
Hammer
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Thought #17: A lot of the successful firms started out with a partnership of at least 2 sound dudes. Clair and Rat are both examples of this.
Thought #9: It's been my assumption that the sound companies as well as the sound dudes that work with the biggest names generally started out at the ground level with a musical act that in turn worked it's way up the ladder. Somebody mentioned what Evan is doing and I think his is a very good example. If not for the success of the band he's touring with, he likely wouldn't be touring at the level he is. I think that success in the touring concert industry is often about being good at picking acts that will go somewhere commercially. That or being lucky enough that one of the no-name bands that you work with takes off.
Thought #4: By now we've all read Outliers and other books of its ilk (right?) so we're already aware that outstanding success is a combination of hard work and chance. I still hold onto the values that were instilled in me as a pup to work hard, be honest and strive for excellence but, I think I do sometimes get a dose of the same "poison" that Mr. Duffin is being associated with. I think the math shows that the ones who really end up standing out in a particular field had opportunities that the others didn't. Would the Clair brothers have been so successful if their father was a grocery store clerk instead of a grocery store owner? I wouldn't want to discount the value of the business education that they were exposed to from a very young age as well as a number of other unknown "advantages". Seeing others around you succeed where you seem to be failing can be a tough reminder that success could very well be out of your hands. But that is a good moment to reread the JBL story for if you give up, you more than likely forfeit any payoff of your hard work.
Well, Leaders always need followers....
Exactly, the live concert sound industry is a rather tilted place from a business standpoint. I'm not sure the industry would exist (certainly not like it is) if there weren't people willing to do all kinds of crazy work for very little monetary reward. Some people are willing to work for less than an honest wage because of the fun and exciting nature of the job. For some this only lasts till the first load out but among those that last long enough to understand what the job entails we end up with some people who are willing to not only work but sacrifice incredibly to live the sound dude life because they've fallen in love with it.Bennett said:
Thought #17: A lot of the successful firms started out with a partnership of at least 2 sound dudes. Clair and Rat are both examples of this.
Thought #9: It's been my assumption that the sound companies as well as the sound dudes that work with the biggest names generally started out at the ground level with a musical act that in turn worked it's way up the ladder. Somebody mentioned what Evan is doing and I think his is a very good example. If not for the success of the band he's touring with, he likely wouldn't be touring at the level he is. I think that success in the touring concert industry is often about being good at picking acts that will go somewhere commercially. That or being lucky enough that one of the no-name bands that you work with takes off.
Thought #4: By now we've all read Outliers and other books of its ilk (right?) so we're already aware that outstanding success is a combination of hard work and chance. I still hold onto the values that were instilled in me as a pup to work hard, be honest and strive for excellence but, I think I do sometimes get a dose of the same "poison" that Mr. Duffin is being associated with. I think the math shows that the ones who really end up standing out in a particular field had opportunities that the others didn't. Would the Clair brothers have been so successful if their father was a grocery store clerk instead of a grocery store owner? I wouldn't want to discount the value of the business education that they were exposed to from a very young age as well as a number of other unknown "advantages". Seeing others around you succeed where you seem to be failing can be a tough reminder that success could very well be out of your hands. But that is a good moment to reread the JBL story for if you give up, you more than likely forfeit any payoff of your hard work.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Hello Drew et al,
Leaders do need followers...that's is the most basic definition of being a "leader"... someone that others follow. Paraphrasing a quote: "If a leader doesn't have followers....he's just a guy taking a walk". When I brought up the subject of a "leader" or being a leader, I was referring to the fact that "Leaders" have confidence, they know how to evaluate a situation, they see how things really are, and they use a combination of experience and intuition to solve problems or accomplish a goal. Real leaders understand their limitations and strengths. Real leaders don't waste their time on things that do not interest them or, in a business world, are not profitable. Real Leaders can succeed by combining their strengths, experiences and applying that to a need. Leaders are generally good at many things.
While Evan was used as an example...I feel it is unfair to say that "If not for the success of the band..." ... I disagree, and that's a presumptive statement which minimizes his achievements and knowledge. I feel that Evan would and could do anything he sets as a goal. My own experiences with him assure me that he not only likes what he's doing, but his drive to learn also indicates that it's his passion. The biggest ommission on someone's part ...is forgetting that, the Group picked HIM to be be THEIR Sound guy. On their way up the ladder, the Group could've chosen many other highly qualifed people to perform the task, but, the picked him and have STAYED with him. Whatever Evan's future holds for him, he will always be successful, it's his drive and passion that assures his success.
And, while I agree that being "lucky", and in the right place at the right time, and "picking" a good act to work with helps on a road to success... it doesn't assure success, there are other factors such as personal relations, knowledge, enthusiasm, and being able to compete tasks, that weigh in the equation as equally.
Lastly.. an important lesson that many overlook... being mentally and physically capable, combined with preparedness ALLOWS for opportunites.
Hammer
Hello Drew et al,
Leaders do need followers...that's is the most basic definition of being a "leader"... someone that others follow. Paraphrasing a quote: "If a leader doesn't have followers....he's just a guy taking a walk". When I brought up the subject of a "leader" or being a leader, I was referring to the fact that "Leaders" have confidence, they know how to evaluate a situation, they see how things really are, and they use a combination of experience and intuition to solve problems or accomplish a goal. Real leaders understand their limitations and strengths. Real leaders don't waste their time on things that do not interest them or, in a business world, are not profitable. Real Leaders can succeed by combining their strengths, experiences and applying that to a need. Leaders are generally good at many things.
While Evan was used as an example...I feel it is unfair to say that "If not for the success of the band..." ... I disagree, and that's a presumptive statement which minimizes his achievements and knowledge. I feel that Evan would and could do anything he sets as a goal. My own experiences with him assure me that he not only likes what he's doing, but his drive to learn also indicates that it's his passion. The biggest ommission on someone's part ...is forgetting that, the Group picked HIM to be be THEIR Sound guy. On their way up the ladder, the Group could've chosen many other highly qualifed people to perform the task, but, the picked him and have STAYED with him. Whatever Evan's future holds for him, he will always be successful, it's his drive and passion that assures his success.
And, while I agree that being "lucky", and in the right place at the right time, and "picking" a good act to work with helps on a road to success... it doesn't assure success, there are other factors such as personal relations, knowledge, enthusiasm, and being able to compete tasks, that weigh in the equation as equally.
Lastly.. an important lesson that many overlook... being mentally and physically capable, combined with preparedness ALLOWS for opportunites.
Hammer
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Quite quite. After my post I realized it would have been good to put in a qualifier that he would likely not be soaring this high this soon if not for a band that has done well very quickly. And again, it's just my observation of the industry - Sound companies and sound dudes do well when their clients do well. As far as picking, certainly the bands sometimes choose their sound dudes (if management doesn't do it for them) but the dude also chooses who he wants to work with. After all, there's only one Friday night a week...
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Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Hello Drew,
Yes, point taken.
I don't mean to be so gruff in my responses... but, the last few days have been...well, crap flying at me from every angle. Some things we can change and others we can't... and we either realize this, or, we agonize over this. So... I let some things go and work on the things I can affect change.
One very important thing that I didn't mention, is in regards to some named Sound Companies & their owners... They didn't achieve success over night. It took years of CONSISTANT serving of their customers. Some supplied their gear to specific groups when others wouldn't even bid the gigs.
Anyway... I hope that everyone can/will achieve their goal. But remember, sometimes what we want and what we need are two different things.
Cheers,
Hammer
Hello Drew,
Yes, point taken.
I don't mean to be so gruff in my responses... but, the last few days have been...well, crap flying at me from every angle. Some things we can change and others we can't... and we either realize this, or, we agonize over this. So... I let some things go and work on the things I can affect change.
One very important thing that I didn't mention, is in regards to some named Sound Companies & their owners... They didn't achieve success over night. It took years of CONSISTANT serving of their customers. Some supplied their gear to specific groups when others wouldn't even bid the gigs.
Anyway... I hope that everyone can/will achieve their goal. But remember, sometimes what we want and what we need are two different things.
Cheers,
Hammer
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
What you need?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_You_Need
What you need?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_You_Need
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
My (past life) success in the business started with being a sound guy (with system) for local bands, progressed to a partnership with a a regional sound company that “got lucky” partnering with a lighting company that happened to be out with a band that was filling arenas.
I was “lucky” to have some funding come in when I traded some fingers for a workman's compensation settlement, that money bought a pair of Pro Yamaha 16 channel consoles, some KT EQs and Beyer mics that helped secure my partnership and the first tour.
On those tours realized what the real “A” list production companies were doing right, and what we were not..
That time period encompassed the years from 1972-1978, an “overnight success”.
I had some differences with my partners business approaches and decided to “do it myself”, built the best sound system in town over the course of 9 months, then spent much of the next year working for $50 a night in a bar while my system sat in the garage, and the economy sucked.
1979 to 1981 was tough sledding, but eventually, things started rolling, and nearly every client we got a chance with turned in to repeat business, because we paid attention to what they wanted .
We landed some fairly good tours over the years from 1983-1992, but most of the business continued to be with regional annual shows, the kind that build up over a long time.
It was tough competing with Clair Bros, Showco, DB Sound, and MSI (before they were one company :^( ) for tours, but competing with contemporary companies like Rat and 8th day was even tougher, as we started about the same time, and if one of us got the gig over another, it was not because of ten or 20 year old established deals, it was because of what was being done right.
Things have not changed much over the years, if you want to get to the top tiers in this business, you still have to do it establishing and maintaining relationships, along with technical competence and some business sense.
Simple as that :^).
Art
Absolutely true, consistent, persistent work is a necessity for success.
My (past life) success in the business started with being a sound guy (with system) for local bands, progressed to a partnership with a a regional sound company that “got lucky” partnering with a lighting company that happened to be out with a band that was filling arenas.
I was “lucky” to have some funding come in when I traded some fingers for a workman's compensation settlement, that money bought a pair of Pro Yamaha 16 channel consoles, some KT EQs and Beyer mics that helped secure my partnership and the first tour.
On those tours realized what the real “A” list production companies were doing right, and what we were not..
That time period encompassed the years from 1972-1978, an “overnight success”.
I had some differences with my partners business approaches and decided to “do it myself”, built the best sound system in town over the course of 9 months, then spent much of the next year working for $50 a night in a bar while my system sat in the garage, and the economy sucked.
1979 to 1981 was tough sledding, but eventually, things started rolling, and nearly every client we got a chance with turned in to repeat business, because we paid attention to what they wanted .
We landed some fairly good tours over the years from 1983-1992, but most of the business continued to be with regional annual shows, the kind that build up over a long time.
It was tough competing with Clair Bros, Showco, DB Sound, and MSI (before they were one company :^( ) for tours, but competing with contemporary companies like Rat and 8th day was even tougher, as we started about the same time, and if one of us got the gig over another, it was not because of ten or 20 year old established deals, it was because of what was being done right.
Things have not changed much over the years, if you want to get to the top tiers in this business, you still have to do it establishing and maintaining relationships, along with technical competence and some business sense.
Simple as that :^).
Art
)Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
What You Need [Official Video Short-Based Off Twilight Zone Episode] - YouTube
For the youngsters...
What You Need [Official Video Short-Based Off Twilight Zone Episode] - YouTube
For the youngsters...
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Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
How to get a slot with a nationally touring band?
Well I know someone who went into a club with a local opener that was "on the edge of being known", apparently impressed a lot of people with their skills and work ethic, helped the headliner iron out some of their tech problems, and generally had a good show.
A year later when the tech was suddenly dropped by the local band, he was instantly hired by the headliner band for all the shows he can manage a year.
Karma- or the people you meet on the way up ar ethe same people you meet on the way back down.
How to get a slot with a nationally touring band?
Well I know someone who went into a club with a local opener that was "on the edge of being known", apparently impressed a lot of people with their skills and work ethic, helped the headliner iron out some of their tech problems, and generally had a good show.
A year later when the tech was suddenly dropped by the local band, he was instantly hired by the headliner band for all the shows he can manage a year.
Karma- or the people you meet on the way up ar ethe same people you meet on the way back down.
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Gentlemen:
Are we talking about technicians or production companies? Some of my immediate thoughts
1). Don't do this unless you love it and just can't do anything else
2). Don't rule out anything. If your path in the production world takes a weird (or not planned) turn, go with it.
3). Always be on the look out for a production need not beeing fulfilled and fill it.
4). Treat everyone you meet with respect - both when they can hear you and when they can't. Former clients can show up in the oddest place.
5). Educate yourself in small business practices, accounting, proposal writing, etc. whether you are a contactor or a business.
6). Remember everyone is a referral.
Enjoy the most amazing journey of your life.
Bonnie Lackey
Gentlemen:
Are we talking about technicians or production companies? Some of my immediate thoughts
1). Don't do this unless you love it and just can't do anything else
2). Don't rule out anything. If your path in the production world takes a weird (or not planned) turn, go with it.
3). Always be on the look out for a production need not beeing fulfilled and fill it.
4). Treat everyone you meet with respect - both when they can hear you and when they can't. Former clients can show up in the oddest place.
5). Educate yourself in small business practices, accounting, proposal writing, etc. whether you are a contactor or a business.
6). Remember everyone is a referral.
Enjoy the most amazing journey of your life.
Bonnie Lackey
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?
Well said Bonnie. I belive your thoughts apply to both.
Well said Bonnie. I belive your thoughts apply to both.