Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Tim Duffin said:
For your information, I only do sound for my friends and only when they ask, so you could say that my system pretty much sits idle most of the year and I can afford to keep it like that. I have no aspirations to be on a "tour" of any type. Quite literally, I am too expensive for that crap.
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Tim,

I don't know where you get off digging into guys like Raul then. Some of us have worked our asses off at this shit to get where we are, and spent bleak winters trying to avoid bankruptcy. I'm glad you have the padding to work when you like, the reality is most of the industry has it much tighter than that. The relatively few companies I know of that were started on Daddy's money or some nest egg have not done well, since money cannot buy satisfied customers and a real business plan, and eventually Daddy cuts them off or the nest egg runs out. A large initial investment does not equate with profitability, especially in a business where 1-3% ROI is the norm. The only cases I know where that has worked, long term, are an investor working closely with established players to begin a new business.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

I can't speak to how the guys that do the big international tours, et al, got where they did. But I can testify that hard work, dedication, and love of the craft can establish a successful company. I think having a big bank roll is a distinct disadvantage. It is of the essence that one understands that the client is why we are here. I have seen more than one company funded by Daddy's tax write off that failed to grasp this basic fundamental.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Steve Payne said:
I can't speak to how the guys that do the big international tours, et al, got where they did. But I can testify that hard work, dedication, and love of the craft can establish a successful company. I think having a big bank roll is a distinct disadvantage. It is of the essence that one understands that the client is why we are here. I have seen more than one company funded by Daddy's tax write off that failed to grasp this basic fundamental.
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as have i. in fact, steve and i may even be thinking of some of the same ones... :)

fact is, this is a tough business to get into, and to make money in. it's very competitive, and requires very significant investment. if you aren't in it because you can't envision yourself doing anything else, you're probably not gonna succeed long term, regardless of your 'x factor'.

i for one decided long ago that 'the gear business' was not for me. i did perfectly well as a freelance engineer and i've now moved on to [been put out to] greener pastures. i have no regrets. i knew i wasn't cut out to slog it out with the big boys and contented myself with being the 'ranch hand'. not everybody wants or needs to own the farm...
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

fact is said:
The fact that I actually make more money than I spend on gear now is a definate plus but it has never been my main reason for being in this business. Even though I work in this field most every week with 2 and 3 events on the same day quite the norm in the spring and summer, I still consider myself a weekend warrior because I have always had a "another job" to be able to pay my bills. From a business standpoint the ROI is so much lower than so many other ventures that require far less physical work and up front capital that for me it made no sense at all for this to be my only means of support. My hat is off to all the guys who did only this and made it. I did the "I don't have any money but I want to own a sound company someday" route. I worked for other sound companies, asked lots of questions, read lots of books and trade magazines, turned lots of knobs, caused lots of feedback, learned how to eliminate said feedback, bought gear as I could starting with what would add to the company I was working for at the time, and so on and so forth. A medium size line array (and learning how to properly deploy it) is in my business plan for this year so the grow as you go plan has worked for me. I will say that if the day ever comes that I no longer enjoy doing this that I will immediately sell all the gear, buy a Ferrari, and hope that it will provide some of the enjoyment and satisfaction I have had in the last 30 years pushing faders. Until then the Ford is fine. I never have any free weekends anyway.
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Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

I know that the OP asked mainly about the touring and event production side of the business, but I think it's good to bring some balance to the discussion. Touring, event production, and freelance tech work isn't all there is to the business; sure they get the lion's share of the guts and glory stories, but there are literally many thousands of sound techs (and electricians, and carpenters, stage managers etc...) making their living every day working as house techs. I work full time, get full benefits, retirement, paid vacation, and clock over 500 hours of overtime per year. Sure I'm not making the big bucks out on tour, but then I'm not out on tour either ;)

There are lots of jobs working for municipal, education, non-profit, and for profit event and performing arts centers out there that provide a steady and stable living for many people. And sometimes we get to work on some cool and exciting shows (but most of the time it's hum-drum boring or downright aggravating).
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Justice C. Bigler said:
I know that the OP asked mainly about the touring and event production side of the business, but I think it's good to bring some balance to the discussion. Touring, event production, and freelance tech work isn't all there is to the business; sure they get the lion's share of the guts and glory stories, but there are literally many thousands of sound techs (and electricians, and carpenters, stage managers etc...) making their living every day working as house techs. I work full time, get full benefits, retirement, paid vacation, and clock over 500 hours of overtime per year. Sure I'm not making the big bucks out on tour, but then I'm not out on tour either ;)

There are lots of jobs working for municipal, education, non-profit, and for profit event and performing arts centers out there that provide a steady and stable living for many people. And sometimes we get to work on some cool and exciting shows (but most of the time it's hum-drum boring or downright aggravating).
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And to add to that, if you talk to most of the larger loudspeaker manufacturers, you will find that a large percentage (60-70% or more in some cases) comes from the INSTALL side of things. There are way more people doing the "day to day" audio stuff than the large tour stuff.

Agreed that is the "glamour" side of the business-but not the "meat and potatoes"-at least for most people.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Bennett Prescott said:
Tim,

I don't know where you get off digging into guys like Raul then. Some of us have worked our asses off at this shit to get where we are, and spent bleak winters trying to avoid bankruptcy. I'm glad you have the padding to work when you like, the reality is most of the industry has it much tighter than that. The relatively few companies I know of that were started on Daddy's money or some nest egg have not done well, since money cannot buy satisfied customers and a real business plan, and eventually Daddy cuts them off or the nest egg runs out. A large initial investment does not equate with profitability, especially in a business where 1-3% ROI is the norm. The only cases I know where that has worked, long term, are an investor working closely with established players to begin a new business.
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I'm just curious, but when you say "where we are" what do you mean? Where are you? Is being a rep for a manufacturer equivalent to being on tour with Madonna?

The live sound industry is mostly just a playground for rich people who want to feel like their in the band/part of the band/connected to the band, etc. By the way, I read the bio for rat sound. It sounds like the "x" factor in that case was that they EXISTED AT ALL in the early 80's. Its easy to be successful at sound when you are literally the only tour sound company in the entire state at the time and you make your own stuff. This is exactly like what happened in the 50's when the american auto industry was on top, they were on top because the Americans bombed every other countries auto industry in ww2 and the U.S. had the only cars in the entire world...you think the auto industry might have been successful at that time? I bet there were lots of stories about how every single one of those companies started from a single nickel in a garage as well.

So, now back to the sound business. We have what is referred to as a "mature industry" with high barriers to entry. When every single company mentioned (note how there are only about 5 total) started, they got their start because there wasn't anything else and they had a monopoly. Success is easy when you have a monopoly--or like I said, when you just happened to be born at the right time in history.

That time has passed, if you want into the elite club of tour sound operators in this day and age, you gotta pay. period. I know that there are sound companies who are starving in the winter, I know because I have seen their bids during rough times-- $1000 for a 16 box JBL full line array with 10 monitor mixes, a pm-5d and 2 techs, yeah...seen that one. Or how about the AV companies renting out equipment for FREE with the hopes that they can maybe get some of the corporate shows in the future...seen that too, never works. The industry has shifted from a monopoly in the early years into what is now referred to as a monopsony,that is, everyone fights each other for the same job.

sounds great, huh
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Tim,
You should seriously consider getting into a new line of work. Your bitterness is poisonous and you are in danger of being consumed by your own asshole.
Get out while there is still time.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

I'll go right out on a limb here - and correct me if I'm wrong please - but I'll bet that Bennett got the gig in a large part because of where he was. Previously ran his own sound company, organised trade show, run successful sound forum (this one); major contributor to old sound forum; successful system tech - and a rep for a new audio company.

Well hey, there is another analogy for you. Why woud Ales bother selling boxes - JBL, L-Acoustics, d+b, Meyer - these are all well respected and long established companies. How can he possibly compete ? What tours have ADR gear on them ? OK.. not yet is my answer but he's putting in the hard slog and one day ADR can acheive the same brand name success as the others.

Put yourself in the hiring job for a moment. You've got a new unproven company offering to do the job at less price than the company you've always used. Is it worth the risk to save that money ? If the price is the same or higher that does look like a no-brainer to me. So that's what you're up against. Maybe you need that lucky break where the usual guy can't do it and you get your chance and prove you can. Relationships, better gear, lucky break - these are the short cuts. The long haul is the way most of us go and many are still on that path miles away from our destination.


Andrew
 
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Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Steve Payne said:
Tim,
You should seriously consider getting into a new line of work. Your bitterness is poisonous and you are in danger of being consumed by your own asshole.
Get out while there is still time.
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Tim is in another line of work or at least in a position he does not have to work with his sound company.

Originally Posted by Tim Duffin

"For your information, I only do sound for my friends and only when they ask, so you could say that my system pretty much sits idle most of the year and I can afford to keep it like that. I have no aspirations to be on a "tour" of any type. Quite literally, I am too expensive for that crap."

It is interesting to read this thread and see where everybody's path has taken them so far. If you read into some of the posts you can see what peoples priorities are and how what they are doing reflects that.

"I work full time, get full benefits, retirement, paid vacation, and clock over 500 hours of overtime per year. Sure I'm not making the big bucks out on tour, but then I'm not out on tour either "

Justice I am with you on the tour thing brother. I turned down the FOH position last year with a band I had been working with because it was about to be 5-6 days a week out of town. My priority was to not be away from home that much. It is cool hearing them on the radio and watching them on TV now though.

I want to make the point that everyone always gets what they go after, maybe not at the exact minute they want it but the doors always open. As just one example, most of us remember Evan on PSW before he was roaming the world SUBjecting everyone to a little bottom end.

Tim, it seems one of your prioritys is being pissed off and that is cool with me. I think in some weird way I must find some peace by getting upset every now and then, it always gives me a greater appreciation for all the time I am not. What do you really want to achieve in the sound world? I am just curious. Have you already achieved it? Have you already gone as far as you are willing to go? Are you actually mad at yourself for not wanting to go further? Are you not willing to admit what are really the core reasons you don't deploy your system more? Only you know that answer. You certainly have a bigger more capable rig than I have.......at least for today. Your points are all very valid but you are letting them be your limitations. I hear a list of reasons why you are not doing more. If you really wanted to do something different you would be making a list of all the reasons you can and should "get the gig"

This field is particularly full of people who "stupidly" ignore the "reasons I can't list" for whatever reason and go on to do great things. The fact that we are even on this forum now is because Bennett and friends decided to make some dumb list of all the reasons of why they can and should create an alternate to PSW.

Just my .02 for some content. Sent in my $10 for some bandwith.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Eric,
I am always humbled when I make a frustrated, curt, "shut the fuck up and quit your whining" post and someone else takes the time to make a meaningful and insightful post on the same subject.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Tim Duffin said:
The live sound industry is mostly just a playground for rich people who want to feel like their in the band/part of the band/connected to the band, etc. By the way, I read the bio for rat sound. It sounds like the "x" factor in that case was that they EXISTED AT ALL in the early 80's. Its easy to be successful at sound when you are literally the only tour sound company in the entire state at the time and you make your own stuff.
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So can you name some companies that are touring with A level artists, that have not been around for awhile?

I have not checked the "roster" lately, but I bet you will find that at least most of the A leve tour guys have roots that go way back and are not "start up companies" that have a lot of money to "buy their way in".

As far as being a "playground for the rich"-I don't know of many in the audio business that that applies to. Maybe you can givce us some names of people/companies to whom this applies? Since you are making the claim-you must know them.

I am not saying there aren't any, but there sure aren't many.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Scott Ciungan said:
So I want to know guys. I can't even count how many huge audio companies there are out there on tour with some of the biggest bands in the world. Where did they all start? how do you get a tour like that? We all know getting off the ground is tuff. Any suggestions on getting the gig?
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If you can't count how many, you cant count very high. There are only a handful at the very top of the game. They got there by doing very good work for a very long time, and becoming establish as capable of doing the work. While anything is possible, the best chance of breaking into the top level is from one level down, and first you have to get there... so if you can guess where I'm going with this you don't start at the top. or get the gig, and then figure out how to do it, first you have to have to be in the ballpark before they can put you in the game.

Disregard the interpersonal nonsense.. some people have very strong personalities that draw attention to themselves, and are best ignored.

JR
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Eric Cagle said:
double post sorry
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Steve Payne said:
Eric,
I am always humbled when I make a frustrated, curt, "shut the fuck up and quit your whining" post and someone else takes the time to make a meaningful and insightful post on the same subject.
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I actually thought the comment was brilliant. I emailed myself a copy so I have it handy when I need a good laugh or to remind myself to back up to a mirror every now and then to check myself for consumption. I want to nominate Bennett's response with the picture as "Post of the month." I saw the "this thread is now" part and thought it was going to say "locked" like in the old PSW days. When I scrolled down I laughed my ass off.

Hopefully Tim will continue to respond to this thread as well. Despite his slant on the issue he has some intelligent and interesting insights on the original post. Actually it is his slant that gives us another perspective.

-Eric
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Justice C. Bigler said:
I believe that this picture is from a Calvin and Hobbes comic...Easily the best comic strip of all time :twisted:

Apparently, a full page watercolor from the Complete Calvin and Hobbes: http://roborant42.appspot.com/show/entry/1021
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Definitely from the Complete Calvin and Hobbes, my all time favorite strip. Expensive collection, but beautifully put together.

Bookshelf.jpg
 
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